D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Umbran]

And I happen to think that at least, it IS data rather than just personal feelings.

It really isn't. "Anecdote" is not the singular of "data".

If you want to find out if people of a particular cultural group or demographic has a problem with something, you don't rely on the testimony of a tourist from another cultural group or demographic.

And here I thought that we were all citizens of the world united by playing D&D, just to find that it's an American game made for Americans.

Oh, please, you were just a post ago reveling in being a European, and not having the problems Americans do. You already called out that you have different cultural concerns, so you don't get to disclaim them now.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

D&D, especially early D&D, sometimes just grabs whatever creature from real world mythology someone thinks is cool and puts it in without much care for the world building implications. IIRC I think the original description for the D&D Rakshasa actually says they come from India, and given that connections to Earth showed up more in early D&D material perhaps all rakshasas really did come from real-world India.

Both the Forgotten Realms and Pathfinder's Lost Omens (Golarion) setting take the avenue of having monsters associated with various real world cultures be especially associated with their fantasy analogues. Genies, which are from the Elemental Planes, for whatever reason just end liking Middle Eastern-style sections of Material Plane worlds for some reason.

4E was a bit of an outlier for the rakshasa because the designers had a strong concept for the cosmology of the Points of Light setting and tried to tie as many things as possible to the setting's lore. In that edition the rakshasas came into being when angels who had elected to be continually reincarnated in the world as humanoids became too evil, resulting in reincarnation as a rakshasa. This not only gave the rakshasa more of a niche in the setting's cosmology, but also informed the visual design for 4E's substitute for the aasimar, devas.

 

[Hriston]

IIRC I think the original description for the D&D Rakshasa actually says they come from India, and given that connections to Earth showed up more in early D&D material perhaps all rakshasas really did come from real-world India.

The quote is, "Known first in India, these evil spirits encased in flesh are spreading." The implication could be as you say, or it could be that because there's a rakshasa in my game, India is now a place in my game-world!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well.its not at all an issue to mix and match I meant. It's " fantastic" so borrow away.
Didn't mean to be misunderstood.

Mod Note:

Letting it slide because you’re being apologetic and clarifying, but generally, responding to moderation in thread is a no-no.

Going forward, don’t quote the Mod, just say something like, “Sorry I was unclear- what I meant was…” and everything will be cool.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Maruts are actually an interesting example to bring into the thread.

In Hinduism the maruts are minor storm gods. They answer to the greater storm god Rudra.

When Planescape incorporated the maruts they were instead instruments of divine fate that targeted those who defied the gods, living in Mechanus but answering the summons of the deities of other planes, with Rudra being used as an example in the flavor text.

In the Plague Year, Rudra visited death upon the once mighty city of Dharaputta. Prince Rajavahana claimed that with his wealth and power he could deny death, dismay Rudra, and lock out the plague. He locked himself in his high-domed palace. Guards kept away all sickness, and even the healthy who would see the Prince were bathed in strong smelling herbs and given magical treatments to insure their health. The sages of Rajavahana warned him that he could not avoid the maruts, but he paid wizards vast amounts to set certain powerful seals upon his doors that would keep the onyx giants from entering his palace.

As the plague reduced his great city to ruin, the prince amused himself by parties and dances. One day he organized a trip to the treasure room of his great-grandfather. There he found a statue of a marut. For a moment he felt afraid, but the oldest dwellers of the palace assured him that the statue had been there since his grandfather’s time. He had the statue taken to his ballroom to show his victory over Rudra.

During his next feast, with all his guests around, Prince Rajavahana stood in front of the figure and taunted it. To his horror, the statue spoke! 'Know, 0 Prince, that the decrees of fate are set aside by no man. Patiently I have waited since the time of your grandfather to bring you this.’ Whereupon the marut breathed out a silvery breath.

“Coughing, the Prince cried, 'What of my guards? what of my spells?’

“Spells and guards are as naught to fate.’

“In an instant all had died the Silvery Death, and the marut, unhampered by spells to prevent its leaving, returned to Mechanus.”

When 3E came around and the designers were looking to replace modrons the marut became but one member of the Inevitables, with the marut being singled out not as an enforcer of divine will in general, but as specifically a punisher of those who defy death (as in the Planescape flavor text). The roster of Inevitables and their functions are as follows:

• The kolyarut enforce written contracts.
• The marut hunt down those who seek to cheat death.
• The quarut protect the laws of time and space.
• The varakhut hunt down those who would seek to rival the gods.
• The zelekhut hunt down fugitives from justice.

4E did away with Mechanus (initially; late 4E reintroduced it and the modrons but described Mechanus as effectively a Lawful version of the Far Realm). The 3E Inevitables disappeared, but the maruts not only remained but went back to their Planescape roots as enforcers of the will of the gods. The 4E lore describes them as having been created by the Lawful gods initially as impartial judges in disagreements between the gods, and in the years since their creation they established various outposts within the Astral Plane to perform other tasks, such as establishing a reliable map of the plane.

5E reinstated Mechanus from the beginning and gave it back to the modrons, with not a mention of the maruts until Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. The current maruts are very high CR creatures that are rented out from a location called the Hall of Concordance in Sigil. They are programmed with specific instructions on a golden plate and single-mindedly pursue their goal, which usually involves capturing a target and teleporting it to the Hall of Concordance. A reference is also made to a kolyarut overseer of the maruts, which if you recall from earlier was a 3E Inevitable in charge of enforcing contracts, though it appears that there is now only one.

So, to sum it up, D&D took minor storm gods from Hinduism and made them into enforcers of the will of the gods (2E), then enforcers of death alongside other specialized enforcers (3E), then back into enforcers of the will of the gods with a few side projects going on (4E), and finally into a small number of programmable enforcers for the will of whoever is able to get a contract approved (5E). The closest thing they have to the Hindu marut is the name and that they sometimes answer to the gods.

 

[bedir than]

They do it for the Vistani,
so I can speculate that any solid case going to legal charges, will force Wotc to move.
I don’t know the details and reasons that make Wotc move for the Vistani but they clearly move.
if not legal charge, any trend that inflate on social media can be enough.

They didn't remove all cultural references from the Vistani. They removed negative stereotypes that harm people in the real world.

 

[guachi]

I think the "take a monster from a culture because it's cool" is a good way go. Only associating a particular creature with a particular culture isn't my preferred style.

Now, I love having real world analogues in my games if only because it makes it easy for players to dive in and get a sense of what's going on. Players don't really care about listening to a massive cultural and political history of a setting while at the gaming table. Being able to say this culture is kind of like X culture on Earth makes the description easier and much shorter.

But I don't think we should only limit a particular creature to its particular culture. I don't expect a medusa or pegasus to only appear in a place with Greek culture. They're cool monsters. Use them!

 

[Micah Sweet]

The thread open a kind of pandora box.
And even then, my first sentence refer to a culture that’s not mine!
For now I don’t think Wotc will take the path of cleaning the MM of all cultural references.
Maybe they will be forced to in the future, expectations are changing rapidly on the subject.

As I've mentioned before, there's a lot of talk about what we shouldn't include, with very specific examples in many cases, but not nearly as much about with what we should replace it (and most of that is very vague "be thoughtful" type of stuff). We can't just keep cutting, unless you want the core books to be a dry bundle of mechanics with generic names. That'll sell like hotcakes, I bet.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Rakshasa don't really have much of a culture beyond what they adopt from what I have seen in D&D. In D&D they are generally Fiends from Hell. Raksasa's from Hinduism are portrayed as shapeshifting, man-eating demons.

 

[bedir than]

We can't just keep cutting, unless you want the core books to be a dry bundle of mechanics with generic names.

Where has this happened?