D&D 5E The Ravenloft Rule and D&D5; or how to control player power

[Remathilis]

Isn't the solution not making magical "I win" buttons in the first place?

The problem here is the "I Win" button for Ravenloft might be very different than in, say, Eberron.

For example; turn undead. In a typical campaign, where skeletons might guard a tomb or a vampire might sulk in a graveyard, Turning isn't very important. Nice when you need it. However, if you ran a game with a lot of undead (in a horror vein) using RAW, turn undead is a "I win" button. How scary is Strahd when you make make him run like a girl? Think the burgomaster is a vampire? Offer "a blessing" to him and TURN; if he runs, your hunch confirmed.

Likewise, it was hard to keep a "gothic" feeling of powerlessness when your 3e PCs were taking Hunter of the Dead, Radiant Servant of Pelor, and using item creation feats to make undead bane weapons. In a normal game, hyper-specializing on one type of monster is stupid; in RL, Favored Enemy: Undead is a given...

I just wonder that, unlike the hyperbalanced 3e or 4e, will Ravenloft in Next be able to regain that feeling of powerlessness that gothic horror needs, or will it lose to a barage of feats, subclasses, and other stuff.

 

[Ichneumon]

Just how do divination spells obtain the information required? Casters on more conventional worlds get the luxury of treating the process like a black box, though it's often assumed that benevolent or neutral beings convey what's required. In Ravenloft, being so blasé isn't an option. Ghosts and other malevolent spirits are believed to deliver the information, and attracting the attention of such beings is a major risk.

The very process of being informed is unnerving enough. Sepulchral voices whisper into PCs' ears. Eerie auras appear around people. Ghostly figures materialise and intone the information sought. There's been tales of bloody, severed heads flying into view and howling cryptic missives. Stories persist of a random PC in a group suddenly adopting a haunted, blank expression and speaking in an alien tone. So far, the PC has always returned to normal afterwards.

However, seasoned PCs can quickly get used to how divinations work here. Apart from the odd fright, there isn't anything that can actually hurt them. Uh-oh. Think again. On other worlds, whatever delivers divination info does its job and goes away. On Ravenloft, the messengers have their own agenda, and are liable to amuse themselves by informing the PCs' targets or sending packs of undead after the PCs. More powerful beings may torment a PC with nightmares or even inflict a geas (required quest). Contact Other Plane, despite its name, puts the PC in direct contact with the greatest power in that part of Ravenloft, such as a dread lord. The more cunning beings enjoy mimicking the deity that the PC thinks they're talking to.

Fundamentally, the most powerful Ravenloft entities permit divinations to help fuel their own amusement. A good degree of reliability is permitted, as without it PC casters would just stop using them. But the PCs should assume by default that if their detect evil has revealed the innkeeper as a vampire, he knows that they know and is already making preparations. Divinations that could put a high-ranking figure at real risk tend to be delivered cryptically, and it's not unknown for two answers to be given: one true, the other dangerously false.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

The key to controlling player power is to simply control player power. Don't allow rules that will unbalance your campaign. Don't allow rules lawyering. Don't feel like you have to roll for every little ruling. Have the rules serve the game as a whole, not just a few aspects of it. Remember that all rules are optional guidelines.

Be a fair GM, but never let your players take control from you. Listen to them, but make sure everyone understands that your final decisions are final.

 

[pemerton]

Divinations were faulty, if not useless. Summoning was a dangerous gambit. Powers that fought undead (like turning) was weakened, while undead gain lots of strengths previously unknown. If you took a group of characters and transported them to Ravenloft (a thing many DMs did) those characters often started playing different immediately

I disagree that crippling all reliable class features was needed for RL. Fighters and Thieves, for instance, were barely touched.

This was my first thought upon reading the OP.

abilities that could "break" the game often were gimped to keep the PCs on their toes: you can't rely on detect evil to determine if the baron is a vampire or turn undead to send him running.

Isn't the solution not making magical "I win" buttons in the first place?

4e did a great job at removing the "I win" buttons

I had this thought too. Divination, summoning and the like aren't just problems in RL; they're problems in lots of situations, and 4e showed one way of removing them.

In a typical campaign, where skeletons might guard a tomb or a vampire might sulk in a graveyard, Turning isn't very important. Nice when you need it. However, if you ran a game with a lot of undead (in a horror vein) using RAW, turn undead is a "I win" button.

I agree turning can be a vexed issue. Even in 4e it can be on the strong side (I use lots of undead in all my fantasy campaigns).

Think the burgomaster is a vampire? Offer "a blessing" to him and TURN; if he runs, your hunch confirmed.

4e goes some way to handling this particular issue: turning is an attack, not just a "blessing" - so it is obvious that you are calling down an attack upon the burgomaster, who therefore at least gets an initiative check to go first!

But ideally (for me at least), using this sort of ability to expose the burgomaster would be part of a non-combat resolution framework (eg skill challenge) rather than about divination-style use of favoured-enemy-style abilities.

 

[synthapse]

The problem here is the "I Win" button for Ravenloft might be very different than in, say, Eberron.

For example; turn undead. In a typical campaign, where skeletons might guard a tomb or a vampire might sulk in a graveyard, Turning isn't very important. Nice when you need it. However, if you ran a game with a lot of undead (in a horror vein) using RAW, turn undead is a "I win" button. How scary is Strahd when you make make him run like a girl? Think the burgomaster is a vampire? Offer "a blessing" to him and TURN; if he runs, your hunch confirmed.

Likewise, it was hard to keep a "gothic" feeling of powerlessness when your 3e PCs were taking Hunter of the Dead, Radiant Servant of Pelor, and using item creation feats to make undead bane weapons. In a normal game, hyper-specializing on one type of monster is stupid; in RL, Favored Enemy: Undead is a given...

I just wonder that, unlike the hyperbalanced 3e or 4e, will Ravenloft in Next be able to regain that feeling of powerlessness that gothic horror needs, or will it lose to a barage of feats, subclasses, and other stuff.

I haven't seen anything in Next thus far that allowed hyper-specialization. Granted, the rules are playtest and we haven't seen anything in several months, but there were never anything resembling prestige classes, and since feats are entirely optional, I think it's fair to say that item creation feats are optional as well. I know I plan on prohibiting mulitclassing entirely in my games, so any prestige classes possibly in the future won't be a problem.

But if Turn Undead is such a hassle for your Ravenloft game, I don't think the problem is in the rule system. Running a horror game requires a certain touch, and you have to be prepared for the fact that your PCs are capable adventurers and not frightened co-eds. Maybe we played vastly different games, but 2E Ravenloft was never an undead-only affair for me. Werewolves, demonic possesion, golems and living dolls, mad science, hags, and a variety of cursed humans all played important roles in the Domains of Dread.

The Burgomaster should never be the vampire, because PCs are always going to check him. If it isn't with a Turn check, then they'll use garlic and mirrors. He should be a lackey, a telepathic puppet, or he should wear an heirloom amulet that allows the real vampire to remotely use Soul Jar on him at night.

Also, I never thought of gothic horror as being about powerlessness; that, for me, was always what cosmic horror was for. Gothic horror is about curses, bad decisions, shades of grey, and the monster that lives inside the man.

 

[Alzrius]

Yes, a fighter could still swing a sword and a thief pick a lock. A wizard could still fireball, a cleric cure wounds. (This was a mistake the 3.5 Ravenloft game made; they overgimped each class. A powers-check chance each level of fighter you take?)

As a minor point, I recall one of the authors (or perhaps editors) of that particular passage speaking about it on one of the Ravenloft message boards, saying that it had been widely misunderstood.

Rather than saying that powers checks were supposed to be made automatically whenever a character gained a level, they were meant to be presumed for (if I recall correctly) new characters that were above first level. That is, if you were bringing in a 4th-level fighter, he'd have been presumed to have had to make three powers checks already (at 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level each). This was (again, if I recall correctly) to try and showcase the idea that most people in Ravenloft had done something morally questionable at some point to get ahead, and to make it so that you couldn't bring in a higher-level character that had somehow avoided all of the moral conundrums that a PC played from 1st level had (presumably) had to make up until then.

It definitely wasn't meant to be an automatic powers check for levels gained during the course of a campaign!

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, part of the reason 3e and 4e skewed in the "you always get to use all your toys" direction had to do with 2e's fondness for "if X causes a problem, just screw it over somehow."

The solution I think isn't the 2e method of "Hahahaha! Now you can't turn undead, sucks to be you, Cleric!" That sucks.

And the 3e/4e method has its issues, too ("Hahahaha! I can turn Strahd!"). That sucks, too.

Then what is the intent here?

The idea is that everyone who is playing in an RL game is signing up and willingly playing a game of gothic horror fantasy where the villains hold all the cards. Someone who is choosing to play a Cleric in that setting should have their Turn Undead feature do something, but we also want for it to do less than it would in a typical D&D game. That is, we want it to have a use, but not be the I Win button.

What about the typical TU makes it an I Win button? The fact that undead flee, or are destroyed is a big component of that. The idea with that initial design is that undead run from sources of goodness and light (like the cleric), and that bright enough light can destroy weak undead.

What if we just made a variant TU that worked a little more....defensively?

Then we'd have:

In Ravenloft, no light can fully pierce the shadows that make up the world, but certain torches can sometimes stand for a time against the coming tide of darkness. Turn Undead thus works differently, here: a cleric who uses this ability creates a zone centered on themselves that lasts as long as they concentrate and are completely still, up to a maximum number of rounds equal to their Wisdom modifier. Undead who wish to enter that zone or to produce effects in that zone must make a successful Charisma vs. Wisdom attack. If successful, the cleric's concentration is disrupted and their zone falls until they take an action and spend another use of Turn Undead to recreate it. A cleric in the mists thus can serve as a bastion for a time, though if their confidence wavers and their fear resumes, it will fall, allowing the hoards in.​

...so imagine a high moor on a dim twilight where the adventurers are walking, and a sea of zombies suddenly unearths itself from the ground and clutches at their ankles, dragging them into their own graves. The party cleric prays for some help, and a pale yellow sphere envelops her and her party. The zombies don't stop scrabbling, though, amassing at the edges of the zone, pressing in, like children on the glass window at a candy store, eager and hungry, and the cleric understands that this intercession is temporary, it is even now fading as the dark powers assert their control, and...those eyes...is that...the Wight of the moor's owner, his face a hideous rictus. The cleric gazes into those eyes for a moment too long, knows that they see the seeds of doubt that make his faith waver, and suddenly the pale aura shatters, and the wave crashes into them....

The Dark Powers thus pervert Turn Undead, as they pervert everything. It calls attention to the user, and causes hoards to swarm around, and keeps the priest standing in place. Really, it often winds up being more of a dinner bell than a defensive ward. But a clever cleric or a brave cleric can use it to take one last futile stand against the tide...or to try bargaining with the vampire for a moment...or to perform last rites on himself before the mummy crushes him...

Ultimately, the idea is not to bone the character out of a class feature, but to give them a new tool that is in keeping with the setting's ideas.

 

[Klaus]

So, part of the reason 3e and 4e skewed in the "you always get to use all your toys" direction had to do with 2e's fondness for "if X causes a problem, just screw it over somehow."

The solution I think isn't the 2e method of "Hahahaha! Now you can't turn undead, sucks to be you, Cleric!" That sucks.

And the 3e/4e method has its issues, too ("Hahahaha! I can turn Strahd!"). That sucks, too.

Then what is the intent here?

The idea is that everyone who is playing in an RL game is signing up and willingly playing a game of gothic horror fantasy where the villains hold all the cards. Someone who is choosing to play a Cleric in that setting should have their Turn Undead feature do something, but we also want for it to do less than it would in a typical D&D game. That is, we want it to have a use, but not be the I Win button.

What about the typical TU makes it an I Win button? The fact that undead flee, or are destroyed is a big component of that. The idea with that initial design is that undead run from sources of goodness and light (like the cleric), and that bright enough light can destroy weak undead.

What if we just made a variant TU that worked a little more....defensively?

Then we'd have:

In Ravenloft, no light can fully pierce the shadows that make up the world, but certain torches can sometimes stand for a time against the coming tide of darkness. Turn Undead thus works differently, here: a cleric who uses this ability creates a zone centered on themselves that lasts as long as they concentrate and are completely still, up to a maximum number of rounds equal to their Wisdom modifier. Undead who wish to enter that zone or to produce effects in that zone must make a successful Charisma vs. Wisdom attack. If successful, the cleric's concentration is disrupted and their zone falls until they take an action and spend another use of Turn Undead to recreate it. A cleric in the mists thus can serve as a bastion for a time, though if their confidence wavers and their fear resumes, it will fall, allowing the hoards in.​

...so imagine a high moor on a dim twilight where the adventurers are walking, and a sea of zombies suddenly unearths itself from the ground and clutches at their ankles, dragging them into their own graves. The party cleric prays for some help, and a pale yellow sphere envelops her and her party. The zombies don't stop scrabbling, though, amassing at the edges of the zone, pressing in, like children on the glass window at a candy store, eager and hungry, and the cleric understands that this intercession is temporary, it is even now fading as the dark powers assert their control, and...those eyes...is that...the Wight of the moor's owner, his face a hideous rictus. The cleric gazes into those eyes for a moment too long, knows that they see the seeds of doubt that make his faith waver, and suddenly the pale aura shatters, and the wave crashes into them....

The Dark Powers thus pervert Turn Undead, as they pervert everything. It calls attention to the user, and causes hoards to swarm around, and keeps the priest standing in place. Really, it often winds up being more of a dinner bell than a defensive ward. But a clever cleric or a brave cleric can use it to take one last futile stand against the tide...or to try bargaining with the vampire for a moment...or to perform last rites on himself before the mummy crushes him...

Ultimately, the idea is not to bone the character out of a class feature, but to give them a new tool that is in keeping with the setting's ideas.

That's within the spirit of the Dark Powers, certainly. But TU was never that much of a hassle. Sure, RL had its own TU table (where undead were harder to turn, and much harder to destroy), but the ability has always been useable few times per day. And when RL throws skeletons or zombies at you, they come in great numbers, greater strength and in waves. Your TU will only get you a couple of extra rounds.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That's within the spirit of the Dark Powers, certainly. But TU was never that much of a hassle. Sure, RL had its own TU table (where undead were harder to turn, and much harder to destroy), but the ability has always been useable few times per day. And when RL throws skeletons or zombies at you, they come in great numbers, greater strength and in waves. Your TU will only get you a couple of extra rounds.

Yeah, I took it as a given that "Class Feature X is a problem!" is the situation. It's entirely possible that this is not true about the situation, but where it is true, re-imagining it as something in the same vein that is less problematic but still has a function within the new context is my preferred solution.

As opposed to "nerf Class Feature X," which isn't the happiest solution.

 

[ccooke]

Yeah, I took it as a given that "Class Feature X is a problem!" is the situation. It's entirely possible that this is not true about the situation, but where it is true, re-imagining it as something in the same vein that is less problematic but still has a function within the new context is my preferred solution.

As opposed to "nerf Class Feature X," which isn't the happiest solution.

I think there might be a simpler alternative to turn undead, at least - and the rule probably works for any powerful feature: Let the players do it, and let RL deal with the consequences.

A big difference between 5e and 3e is that big, powerful features like Turn Undead are far more limited now. Clerics of levels 6 to 18 get 2 uses of Channel Divinity per rest. That means they *could* use it once per fight, to great effect. But this is Ravenloft; channelling divine energy into it isn't going to come without a price, right?

So, for every use of Turn Undead, give every undead creature in the domain a cumulative +1 bonus to the Will save for resisting it. If you're feeling nice, reduce that bonus by -1 for every day or so that it's *not* used, at all.

The party will be nicely confident initially, but over time they'll realise that it's getting weaker and weaker. Have the GM narrate a sickly glow or other effect that's shielding the creatures effected, becoming darker with each use. Quickly it becomes a resource problem - they can use it once per day without making the situation worse, but maybe *this* is the fight where they need to use it a second time...

Double the bonus (but not the speed of decay) for important NPCs like Strahd. Hell, imagine it - you make Strahd run away. That should be a rare event, given the Will save he should have. But imagine his reaction the next time he sees the party after it? The PCs *should* dread it.

I think the proper mindset for a PC in Ravenloft should, eventually, be a terrible fear that no matter what you do, it's going to make things worse.

Scrying? Let the players scry. Make the scrying sensor always visible, and as soon as they do it have things start scrying back at them. Make Ravenloft adapt to naturally (and horribly) discourage the use of powerful tools, without actually making them unusable