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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5791379" data-attributes="member: 82106">Yeah, I think we pretty much see it the same way. I think the AD&amp;D thief was a bit anemic overall, though they would now and then have their day in the sun, but in general we're on the same page.I think the 4e guys relied a bit too much on just assuming people would understand ways to leverage the SC system and the skills in general, but didn't say a lot about 'granularity'. So they never said for instance &quot;it's a good idea sometimes to have a skill check resolve a whole scene&quot; like that.OTOH my approach is generally to have an SC where a bunch of stuff can happen. It isn't all focused on the rogue though usually. Maybe the goal is 'gather enough info to learn about X', and the wizard goes and studies, the cleric prays for insight, the rogue sneaks around (or uses streetwise maybe), and the fighter... (yeah, 4e screwed the fighter, pathetic). So the rogue does his thing, and it might be the most key part of the operation, but chances are at least he's not the sole focus for too long. This sort of SC is actually a really good one and works well too. Other types are harder to pull off, but the gathering info jig works well with the SC structure.I think part of it may be that 4e has short rounds. Actually a rogue using a daily, AP, encounter from SA DOES have a pretty good shot at insta-ganking an at-level enemy. Even if he doesn't, the guy turns around, takes a shot back at him, probably with some condition on him and assuming the rogue is still standing there he may not even get a shot off in round 1 (IE, Dazing Strike followed by Sly Flourish and a 1 square shift, follow in round 2 with another at-will, you've about finished most standard opponents). Total elapsed time a few seconds. AD&amp;D's 1 minute rounds kind of worked it out differently. Once you hit high heroic you can actually take out most elites this way, though it is a good bit more dicey.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5791379, member: 82106"] Yeah, I think we pretty much see it the same way. I think the AD&D thief was a bit anemic overall, though they would now and then have their day in the sun, but in general we're on the same page. I think the 4e guys relied a bit too much on just assuming people would understand ways to leverage the SC system and the skills in general, but didn't say a lot about 'granularity'. So they never said for instance "it's a good idea sometimes to have a skill check resolve a whole scene" like that. OTOH my approach is generally to have an SC where a bunch of stuff can happen. It isn't all focused on the rogue though usually. Maybe the goal is 'gather enough info to learn about X', and the wizard goes and studies, the cleric prays for insight, the rogue sneaks around (or uses streetwise maybe), and the fighter... (yeah, 4e screwed the fighter, pathetic). So the rogue does his thing, and it might be the most key part of the operation, but chances are at least he's not the sole focus for too long. This sort of SC is actually a really good one and works well too. Other types are harder to pull off, but the gathering info jig works well with the SC structure. I think part of it may be that 4e has short rounds. Actually a rogue using a daily, AP, encounter from SA DOES have a pretty good shot at insta-ganking an at-level enemy. Even if he doesn't, the guy turns around, takes a shot back at him, probably with some condition on him and assuming the rogue is still standing there he may not even get a shot off in round 1 (IE, Dazing Strike followed by Sly Flourish and a 1 square shift, follow in round 2 with another at-will, you've about finished most standard opponents). Total elapsed time a few seconds. AD&D's 1 minute rounds kind of worked it out differently. Once you hit high heroic you can actually take out most elites this way, though it is a good bit more dicey. [/QUOTE]

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