The same that happened Gygax happens to Rein-Hagen?

[Charlaquin]

Oh yeah, forgot Rice's oeuvre - certainly a strong connection to that touchstone.

It was very clearly a strong source of inspiration for V:tM. In particular, the social structures of the Camarilla are a direct mirror of Armand’s coven expanded to a larger scale, and the Traditions are a barely remixed version of the Great Laws.

Something like Buffy probably has many, many inspirations, it wanted to flip the Horror genre on it's head.

Buffy was never really horror. The movie was a comedy, and the show was very explicitly a teen drama that used supernatural monsters to externalize the internal struggles of adolescence. Joss Whedon infamously hated the characters of Angel and Spike because humanizing vampires was directly opposed to their intended allegorical function in the narrative.

Also keep in mind that 'Blade' first appeared in '73 in Marvel comics, predating the Rice novel by three years (but not the short story '68 vs '76).

Blade had very little in common with Rice’s works or V:tM.

Other works where the protagonist is a monster are Frankenstein and Phantom of the Opera, both far older works.

Err… Victor Frankenstein is the protagonist of Shelly’s Frankenstein. The creature is sympathetic, but he’s not the protagonist. It’s also a story that’s about interrogating what makes a monster, which Rice’s works are very much not, and V:tM… seems to want to present itself as being about that, but the gameplay doesn’t really support it well, in my experience. Phantom I’m much less familiar with, but at least in the musical adaptation the phantom was very much the antagonist.

 

[Charlaquin]

Dude, the Anarchs are barely mentioned in the original core rulebook. I don't have a pdf to search, but I find like, five whole sentences in my hardcopy.

Hard to have a game written with an expectation of the players identifying with them, whey they are told nothing about Anrachs in the book!

Well, the game is written with the assumption that PCs are newly-embraced vampires of high generation, which with the way the Camarilla is structured sets them up to be marginalized and oppressed, while the Anarch movement purports to be a more egalitarian alternative to the Camarilla. That the text seems much more interested in exploring the characters it sets up to be in an antagonistic role towards the characters it expects the players to portray than it is in the PCs or their allies is something the game is frequently critiqued for.

 

[Deset Gled]

Buffy was never really horror. The movie was a comedy, and the show was very explicitly a teen drama that used supernatural monsters to externalize the internal struggles of adolescence.

Let's also be clear that Buffy was released in 1992 and VtM was released in 1991. Both were in development at the same time. They were contemporaries. Both can claim their own effect on the vampire zeitgeist, but neither can claim to be based on the other.

 

[Charlaquin]

Let's also be clear that Buffy was released in 1992 and VtM was released in 1991. Both were in development at the same time. They were contemporaries. Both can claim their own effect on the vampire zeitgeist, but neither can claim to be based on the other.

The movie released in 92, the show was 97, and had very little in common with the movie. But, yeah, neither were inspired by the other when they first came out. They both went on for long enough they could plausibly have influenced one another’s later material. But for the most part I don’t think they did, because again, they had wildly different themes and tones.

 

[MGibster]

There was also the parallel development of Nightlife and VtM, the former releasing just a few months before the latter, but never found the same audience. Possibly due to differences in distribution and production values.

I purchased Nightlife first and other than the cover art it just didn't leave any lasting impression on me.

Buffy was never really horror. The movie was a comedy, and the show was very explicitly a teen drama that used supernatural monsters to externalize the internal struggles of adolescence. Joss Whedon infamously hated the characters of Angel and Spike because humanizing vampires was directly opposed to their intended allegorical function in the narrative.

Wasn't Whedon responsible for the inclusion of Angel in the pilot episode of Buffy?

 

[Charlaquin]

Wasn't Whedon responsible for the inclusion of Angel in the pilot episode of Buffy?

My understanding is that the network demanded the show have a vampire love interest character, and Angel was what Whedon came up with to satisfy that demand while distorting his intended allegory as little as possible. Angel having been magically cursed with a soul excused him being different than other vampires, and he still served as an externalization of adolescent turmoil, standing in for the struggle with taboo attraction to dangerous men, particularly older men. And I don’t know how far ahead Whedon planned this, but as early as season 2, the “cursed with a soul” setup developed into a representation of the older boyfriend who completely changes after their first sexual encounter, and the character dies at the end of that season. I don’t think Whedon initially intended to bring him back to life in season 3, but that, along with Spike’s cameo in season 3, return as a regular character and occasional ally to the Scooby gang in season 4, and gradual development from creep to toxic sexual relationship to full romantic intrerest over the course of seasons 5-7 were all results of studio demands because of the two characters’ incredible popularity among viewers, which Whedon fought tooth and nail against every step of the way.

Personally, I do think this is a rare case of studio meddling improving a series, because Spike is one of the best things about the show. Though that might be better attributed to James Marsters’ performance than anything else.

 

[Umbran]

Well, the game is written with the assumption that PCs are newly-embraced vampires of high generation, which with the way the Camarilla is structured sets them up to be marginalized and oppressed, while the Anarch movement purports to be a more egalitarian alternative to the Camarilla.

The Anarch movement, as such, was not detailed until a supplement two years later. The movement does not purport much of anything in the six whole sentences it gets in the core book.

But, if you want to believe that, in a 260 page book, six sentences set up what the players are supposed to identify with... you do you.

 

[Charlaquin]

The Anarch movement, as such, was not detailed until a supplement two years later. The movement does not purport much of anything in the six whole sentences it gets in the core book.

But, if you want to believe that, in a 260 page book, six sentences set up what the players are supposed to identify with... you do you.

I don’t think the players were supposed to identify with the Anarch movement. Rather, the Camarilla were supposed to be antagonists, and the Anarch movement opposed the Camarilla, which positioned them to be usable as potential allies to the PCs

 

[TheHand]

I didn’t play a ton of Vampire back in the 90’s, but in our games the Camarilla was the default faction, the Shabbat the opposing faction. and the Anarchs were barely a blip.

With the current V5 books that’s all changed, with the Anarchs being very front and center.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I didn’t play a ton of Vampire back in the 90’s, but in our games the Camarilla was the default faction, the Shabbat the opposing faction. and the Anarchs were barely a blip.

With the current V5 books that’s all changed, with the Anarchs being very front and center.

The tone of the game has changed as well. It was gothic punk and trying to avoid becoming a monster and now less punk and less gothic and “can I live with what I must do?”.

Gone are the days of the cool Bradstreet art.

Look at Bloodlines 2. Stripped out all the edgy humor (and other stuff). I’ve been playing the new digital CCG VtM Clans of London (still in beta) and the art makes me think more gangster than vampire. Again though when I think of VtM I think of the old school art and not modern people looking normal-ish. (Not to say some cards aren’t vampiric etc) It even uses the term Murder instead of Final Death.