Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Rocket your D&D 5E and Level Up: Advanced 5E games into space! Alpha Star Magazine Is Launching... Right Now!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
The Secret "Historie" of the Gorgon, Lamia, and Su-Monster
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="talien" data-source="post: 7813874" data-attributes="member: 3285"><p>In the <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-imaginary-book-that-spawned-necessary-monsters.667306/" target="_blank">previous article</a> we looked at a book that was highly influential on the creation of the <strong>Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual. </strong>But that book wasn't the only source where D&D's co-creator, Gary Gygax, diverged from traditional sources. Like the peryton, we can deduce the origins of another curious monster that is depicted in a unique way thanks to Edward Topsell's <strong>Historie of Foure-Footed Beasts.</strong></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center">[ATTACH=full]114190[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Although perhaps not as influential as Edward Borges' <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-imaginary-book-that-spawned-necessary-monsters.667306/" target="_blank"><strong>Book of Imaginary Beings</strong></a>, Topsell's <strong>Historie </strong>has made an indelible mark on D&D's monsters. This is most evident in the depiction of the gorgon.</p><p></p><p><strong>The Gorgon</strong></p><p></p><p>The gorgon is traditionally associated with Medusa. In a rare reversal for D&D's obsession with categorizing the lineage of every fantasy beast, Medusa is the name of an individual, not a species. She was a gorgon -- along with her two sisters, Stheno and Euryale. All were depicted as having snakes for hair and a gaze that could turn a man to stone. And yet, somehow we ended up with this picture for the gorgon. What happened?</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center">[ATTACH=full]114191[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Edward Topsell happened. Or rather, Gygax may have read Topsell's book, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Topsell" target="_blank"><strong>The Historie of Foure-Footed Beasts</strong></a><strong>: </strong></p><p></p><p>This massive tome, which you can read in its <a href="https://www.scribd.com/doc/118076446/The-History-of-Four-Footed-Beasts" target="_blank">entirety without pictures at Scrbid</a> or <a href="https://archive.org/details/historyoffourfoo00tops" target="_blank">with pictures at Archive.org</a>, contains a comprehensive compilation of beasts, including mythological creatures. The book was accompanied by detailed woodcuts, one of which was of a “strange Lybian Beast” or the “<a href="https://penelope.uchicago.edu/oddnotes/topsellgorgon.html" target="_blank">Gorgon</a>":</p><p></p><p>This description of an ox-like creature, along with the woodcut of the monster in the first edition of Topsell's bestiary, points to Gygax's inspiration for the gorgon.</p><p style="text-align: center">[ATTACH=full]114192[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>RPG scholar Jon Peterson takes this thread further and connects the book to Ernst and Johanna Lehner's <a href="http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-fantastic-bestiary.html" target="_blank">A Fantastic Bestiary</a> :</p><p></p><p>Given the Fantastic Bestiary was published in 1969, it seems likely the gorgon's description was drawn from Topsell's tome. The description doesn't account for the scales, which seem uniquely attributed to Topsell's woodcut. The gorgon wasn't the only creature Topsell recorded that may have inspired Gygax.</p><p></p><p><strong>The Lamia</strong></p><p></p><p>The lamia, like the three gorgons, was traditionally an individual rather than a species. Ecohawk explains in his <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-lamia.663690/" target="_blank">Monster ENCyclopedia series</a>:</p><p></p><p>The portrayal of the lamia in the <strong>AD&D Monster Manual</strong> is something of a sphinx-like centaur.</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center">[ATTACH=full]114193[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>And while there were definitely some creative tweaks made by the artist, the same cloven hooves, bear fore paws, and female upper torso are apparent in the AD&D lamia portrayal. <a href="https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A42668.0001.001/1:6.381?rgn=div2;view=fulltext" target="_blank">Topsell's descriptio</a>n is accompanied by a woodcut:</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center">[ATTACH=full]114194[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p><strong>The Su-Monster</strong></p><p></p><p>In Echohawk's ENCyclopedia article, <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-tomb-of-annihilation.664710/" target="_blank">he describes the su-monster</a>:</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center">[ATTACH=full]114195[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Peterson's article attributes the appearance of the su-monster to <a href="http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-fantastic-bestiary.html?_sm_au_=iWH2Vfqnlj7BQMl5" target="_blank">A Fantastic Bestiary</a>:</p><p></p><p>The illustration in <strong>A Fanastic Bestiary </strong>may well be from Topsell's book. <a href="https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A42668.0001.001/1:6.448?rgn=div2;view=fulltext" target="_blank">He describes it thusly</a>:</p><p></p><p>And in turn, that woodcut was taken from Andre Thevet's Singularites de la France Antarctique.</p><p></p><p style="text-align: center">[ATTACH=full]114196[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Was Topsell the direct source for some of these monsters? We have <a href="http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-fantastic-bestiary.html?_sm_au_=iWH2Vfqnlj7BQMl5" target="_blank">only this hint</a> from Stephen R. Marsh, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_R._Marsh" target="_blank">an early contributor to the <strong>Eldritch Wizardry </strong>supplement</a>:</p><p></p><p>Given that the su-monster appeared in Topsell's medieval bestiary, perhaps he was the original source after all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="talien, post: 7813874, member: 3285"] In the [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-imaginary-book-that-spawned-necessary-monsters.667306/']previous article[/URL] we looked at a book that was highly influential on the creation of the [B]Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual. [/B]But that book wasn't the only source where D&D's co-creator, Gary Gygax, diverged from traditional sources. Like the peryton, we can deduce the origins of another curious monster that is depicted in a unique way thanks to Edward Topsell's [B]Historie of Foure-Footed Beasts.[/B] [CENTER][ATTACH type="full" alt="THOFFB.jpg"]114190[/ATTACH][/CENTER] Although perhaps not as influential as Edward Borges' [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-imaginary-book-that-spawned-necessary-monsters.667306/'][B]Book of Imaginary Beings[/B][/URL], Topsell's [B]Historie [/B]has made an indelible mark on D&D's monsters. This is most evident in the depiction of the gorgon. [B]The Gorgon[/B] The gorgon is traditionally associated with Medusa. In a rare reversal for D&D's obsession with categorizing the lineage of every fantasy beast, Medusa is the name of an individual, not a species. She was a gorgon -- along with her two sisters, Stheno and Euryale. All were depicted as having snakes for hair and a gaze that could turn a man to stone. And yet, somehow we ended up with this picture for the gorgon. What happened? [CENTER][ATTACH type="full" alt="gorgon1.png"]114191[/ATTACH][/CENTER] Edward Topsell happened. Or rather, Gygax may have read Topsell's book, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Topsell'][B]The Historie of Foure-Footed Beasts[/B][/URL][B]: [/B] This massive tome, which you can read in its [URL='https://www.scribd.com/doc/118076446/The-History-of-Four-Footed-Beasts']entirety without pictures at Scrbid[/URL] or [URL='https://archive.org/details/historyoffourfoo00tops']with pictures at Archive.org[/URL], contains a comprehensive compilation of beasts, including mythological creatures. The book was accompanied by detailed woodcuts, one of which was of a “strange Lybian Beast” or the “[URL='https://penelope.uchicago.edu/oddnotes/topsellgorgon.html']Gorgon[/URL]": This description of an ox-like creature, along with the woodcut of the monster in the first edition of Topsell's bestiary, points to Gygax's inspiration for the gorgon. [CENTER][ATTACH type="full" alt="gorgon2.gif"]114192[/ATTACH][/CENTER] RPG scholar Jon Peterson takes this thread further and connects the book to Ernst and Johanna Lehner's [URL='http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-fantastic-bestiary.html']A Fantastic Bestiary[/URL] : Given the Fantastic Bestiary was published in 1969, it seems likely the gorgon's description was drawn from Topsell's tome. The description doesn't account for the scales, which seem uniquely attributed to Topsell's woodcut. The gorgon wasn't the only creature Topsell recorded that may have inspired Gygax. [B]The Lamia[/B] The lamia, like the three gorgons, was traditionally an individual rather than a species. Ecohawk explains in his [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-lamia.663690/']Monster ENCyclopedia series[/URL]: The portrayal of the lamia in the [B]AD&D Monster Manual[/B] is something of a sphinx-like centaur. [CENTER][ATTACH type="full" alt="lamia1.jpg"]114193[/ATTACH][/CENTER] And while there were definitely some creative tweaks made by the artist, the same cloven hooves, bear fore paws, and female upper torso are apparent in the AD&D lamia portrayal. [URL='https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A42668.0001.001/1:6.381?rgn=div2;view=fulltext']Topsell's descriptio[/URL]n is accompanied by a woodcut: [CENTER][ATTACH type="full" alt="lamia2.png"]114194[/ATTACH][/CENTER] [B]The Su-Monster[/B] In Echohawk's ENCyclopedia article, [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/monster-encyclopedia-tomb-of-annihilation.664710/']he describes the su-monster[/URL]: [CENTER][ATTACH type="full" alt="su-monster1.jpg"]114195[/ATTACH][/CENTER] Peterson's article attributes the appearance of the su-monster to [URL='http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-fantastic-bestiary.html?_sm_au_=iWH2Vfqnlj7BQMl5']A Fantastic Bestiary[/URL]: The illustration in [B]A Fanastic Bestiary [/B]may well be from Topsell's book. [URL='https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A42668.0001.001/1:6.448?rgn=div2;view=fulltext']He describes it thusly[/URL]: And in turn, that woodcut was taken from Andre Thevet's Singularites de la France Antarctique. [CENTER][ATTACH type="full" alt="su-monster2.jpg"]114196[/ATTACH][/CENTER] Was Topsell the direct source for some of these monsters? We have [URL='http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-fantastic-bestiary.html?_sm_au_=iWH2Vfqnlj7BQMl5']only this hint[/URL] from Stephen R. Marsh, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_R._Marsh']an early contributor to the [B]Eldritch Wizardry [/B]supplement[/URL]: Given that the su-monster appeared in Topsell's medieval bestiary, perhaps he was the original source after all. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
The Secret "Historie" of the Gorgon, Lamia, and Su-Monster
Top