The see the unseen debate

[dedicated]

In the Your Toughts on the Warlock thread a debate started on whether or not the See the Unseen invocation let you see Invisible creatures for 24 hours or not so I made this thread to continue the debate without using up to much space in a different thread

 

[Endur]

My interpretation is that the duration is 24 hours for Seeing the Unseen for both See Invisible and Infravision. I think this is what the designers intended. I think its not over-powered. I think we're forced into this interpretation by how they wrote the description of the invocation.

The normal rule, is that if a power or spell or invocation or what-have-you specifies a duration, then the duration applies to the entire spell or power or invocation unless it specifies otherwise.

It does not specify that you use a duration other than 24 hours for Seeing Unseeable objects and creatures. So the 24 hours applies to the entire power. Not just part of it.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I agree with Endur. The reference to see invisibility is to the effect of the spell; things like range and duration would be overriden by what is listed for Seeing the Unseen.

Off hand I can't think of an ability or spell that grants different powers with different durations. I would certainly think that if Seeing the Unseen worked like that, the differential duration would be emphasized.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Here's what it says:

You can activate this ... allowing you to see invisible creatures and objects (as see invisibility). You also also gain darkvision ... for a period of 24 hours.

It specifically says that you gain darkvision for 24 hours. This statement hasn't any bearing on the see invisibility portion, as they are two distinct sentences. There is no rule that states that all parts of a spell, invocation, or anything must have the same duration that I am aware of, so you'll need to find a quote to back that up. The "as see invisibility" part strongly suggests that you use the duration of see invisibility for this aspect of the ability, and there is nowhere else to find the duration of the effect.

 

[dedicated]

Thirdwizard, can you post the entire thing instead of leaving parts out?
Thanks

 

[Sleeping Dragon]

Well apart from situations like the warlock being suddenly awakened from sleep or having it run out during a combat, it seems rather irrelevant to me - warlocks can use all their invocations at will, so they can just immediately get see the unseen back up and running every time it expires. I interpreted it as lasting 24 hours though when I had a warlock in my group.

 

[Thanee]

It's a viable interpretation surely, though, the text is just badly phrased IMHO.

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference, anyways.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DonTadow]

From an English Rules standpoint, only darkvision lasts for 24 hours. The description of the invocation is two sentences. The first sentence describes the seeing of invisible objects and creatures. The second sentence describes darkvision, which lasts for 24 hours. The two parts of the spell are separated into two sentences so that there is no description. If I am writing this spell and I intended the whole spell to be 24 hours, I would have made it one long sentence or I would make it three sentences, the third sentence specifiying that the duration of this entire spell is 24 hours. Instead we get a second sentence which specified only the part included in the sentence lasts for 24 hours.

 

[Taloras]

Sea the Unseen
Least, 2nd
When you use this invocation, you can activate great powers of vision, allowing you to see invisible creatures and objects(as see invisibility). You also gain darkvision out to 60 feet for a period of 24 hours.

Sounds like Thirdwizard is correct, as it specifically says you gain darkvision for a period of 24 hours. It says nothing about see invisibility for 24 hours(darn, im playing a warlock)

 

[Votan]

It specifically says that you gain darkvision for 24 hours. This statement hasn't any bearing on the see invisibility portion, as they are two distinct sentences. There is no rule that states that all parts of a spell, invocation, or anything must have the same duration that I am aware of, so you'll need to find a quote to back that up. The "as see invisibility" part strongly suggests that you use the duration of see invisibility for this aspect of the ability, and there is nowhere else to find the duration of the effect.

Part of the problem appears to be that they cheaped out on text in Complete Arcane. They tried to do an entire new classes abilities using as little text as possible. This brings about these situations where there are two equally logical ways to read the innvocation. In practice I think the 24 hours interpretation just saves time as the warlock will (most likely) be obsessively casting this anyway if it has any other duration. But it could matter (situaiton in which you don't want to be seen casting spells exist but where see invisibility would be nice -- like in an audience with a King and an invisible assassin shows up).

Personally, I think this one is insoluable and you have to go with best guess.