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D&D General The senseless achitecture in most official products

Laurefindel

Legend
-Square room syndrome. It is easy when drawing out a dungeon on graph paper, to make every room rectangular. But it also makes for a very boring lay out.

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Elevations (or lack thereof) is often my biggest gripe about modern maps, which surprises me since many recent computer games offer well-designed multilevel dungeons.

But in this case like many others, the squareness of the rooms doesn't bother me as much as the fact that they are all neatly aligned with one another and perfectly oriented N/S or E/W.

If it is true that realism should inspire rather than dictate (modern) fantasy maps design, grids and graph paper should offer a sense of scale, not guiding lines.
 

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If it is true that realism should inspire rather than dictate (modern) fantasy maps design, grids and graph paper should offer a sense of scale, not guiding lines.

For this reason, I often draw my maps on blank paper or in a graphics program with no visible grid. Then I add a grid at the end, scaled appropriately. This doesn't resolve issues with realistic vertical dimensions but makes it much easier to avoid too much symmetry and too many perfect right angles.
 

practicalm

Explorer
While I think poorly thought out dungeons are annoying, to me the worst offenders are houses / manors that are just terribly thought out.
Gralhund Villa in the Waterdeep isn't bad but having the kids room be accessed through the master bedroom is annoying.

The Cassalanters' Villa is just a mess though. It's clear they were trying to cram it all on to a single page.

I will say the first few levels of the Dungeon of the Mad Mage are terrible because they don't loop. How could people go through that dungeon and not have been clearing out the people blocking it. It needs to be bigger given the reputation of people going in and out of the dungeon with some regularity.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
It's so funny seeing people still having this discussion as we approach nearly 50 years of D&D in the wild.

I feel like this is the most "old school" thing about D&D - the nonsensical architecture/geography/environment discussions have been going on as long as I've been playing the game, so it's nice that tradition is maintained.

(This is why the purest form of dungeon will always be the "deathtrap built by a mad wizard under his tower that he has stocked with treasure and monsters". Because then any arguments about stupid architectural choices - like "why would this tunnel dead-end into an alcove containing only a trapped statue" are easily answered by "crazy evil wizard - don't think too hard about it").
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Well like I said, this is my personal taste. It is by no means an absolute rule. And I agree that some empty rooms can serve a purpose. But more commonly, they tend to dominate bad maps, where empty rooms and corridors are all over the map. I believe that a map that is more densely packed with things of interest, make for a better dungeon crawling experience. This doesn't mean that every room must be stuffed with monsters, items, traps and puzzles. But I think it makes for a better experience if there's something to see and do in nearly every space of the dungeon, even if it's something trivial.
Depends on the dungeon and-or the PCs' reasons for being there, too. As a starter adventure I've had parties go into (in theory) cleared-out dungeons with their goal being simply to map the place, as a training exercise. Sure there's some minor monsters have moved in, but on the whole the place is mostly empty. (and yes, this is an unusual type of adventure) :)

If a dungeon has multiple bands of warring occupants, empty rooms could also represent a buffer between their territories.

Of course a dungeon can have modifications that weren't part of the original fictional design. When I talk about designing with a purpose however, I mean the purpose that the DM has in mind for an area (and not the fictional person who originally created the dungeon). A collapsed corridor or tunnel of a burrowing creature is a purposeful area. There is a reason it is there. But more often than not you'll see a lot of rooms and corridors that don't seem to serve any narrative purpose at all. This doesn't mean that every room MUST have a purpose. But in my experience, when you think about the purpose of some of the areas, you end up with a better result.
Ah, I think we're coming at this one from opposite directions.

When I'm designing an adventure site my first thought is "what was its original in-fiction purpose" (or "why is it here"), followed by "what has happened to it since, if anything". Only after that will I overlay any purpose I-as-DM might have for that area now, as in "this was once the main hall, it's the biggest room, so that's where the Ogres are gonna live".

For example, if you're designing the lay out of a castle, how far would the kitchen logically be from the food supplies or the dining area? How far would the servant quarters be from the location where they do their job? When you think about these sorts of things, you gain an understanding that these areas should logically be closely connected to one another.
Agreed re the kitchen-dining example. Servants' quarters ofetn weren't all that close to their work site - kitchen staff at a mansion who spend their days in the basement might have their rooms in the attic, for example; or even live in a detached barracks.

This could mean that as a DM you're designing a whole lot of rooms that will never be explored.
Not a problem.

Having 'some' optional rooms is fine. But if the players take a right turn instead of a left, and end up skipping half the dungeon, then there's surely something wrong in the design.
If the players/PCs aren't thorough in their explorations, that's on them. All they need to do is map the flippin' place and they'll soon see the unexplored passages.

I think there are plenty of reasons why a dungeon might have only one way in. Especially if the dungeon is supposed to be some kind of cave or tomb. But I agree that it is a thing that DM's should give more thought. Plus there might be alternative entry points that weren't part of the original fictional design. When a dungeon has more than one entrance/exit it gives the players a strategic option to consider. I would however suggest then that it should be a meaningful choice. The entry/exit points should be notably different, and have their own advantages/disadvantages. As a DM I also like to include an obvious route and a not so obvious route (for example, an underwater passage that allows for a more stealthy approach). A DM should also be cautious not to overdo it. If the players have too many choices, their point of entry may feel irrelevant.
My go-to example for this is the castle/dungeon part of L1 Secret of Bone Hill.

There's about six different ways to get in to that thing, some obvious, some not so. What this allows for is if a party gets beaten back from one entrance they can try another; and-or they can scout to find an entrance that at least appears less risky. (and as DM it's great if you want to run the module more than once over the years, as the choice of entries means no two parties will ever approach it the same way!)

I'm not too concerned about the tactical advantages/disadvantages of each entry point - they are what they are and the players/PCs can approach them as they like. They're not likely to have much information on what's inside unless something's telegraphed or (very rare IME) they're willing to spend the time to observe the place for a few days, thus making it quite intentionally difficult to make a "meaningful" choice* except by trial and error.

* - other than obvious challenges such as climbing if, say, they decide to go in through a roof or high window.

Example: in Bone Hill the obvious means of entry to the castle are through the front door or by scrambling through a big hole (or two?) in the wall around the back. There's telegraphed dangers to the front-door option (obvious circular char marks left by the fireball-happy wizard in the place), but the hole option is also quite risky. There's also upper windows you could go in; if memory serves there's also an entry through the roof; and at least one secret entry through an outbuilding direct to the dungeon below.

Once inside, Bone Hill also has several loops both vertical and horizontal, though there are a couple of dead ends in the dungeon.
 

It's so funny seeing people still having this discussion as we approach nearly 50 years of D&D in the wild.

I feel like this is the most "old school" thing about D&D - the nonsensical architecture/geography/environment discussions have been going on as long as I've been playing the game, so it's nice that tradition is maintained.

(This is why the purest form of dungeon will always be the "deathtrap built by a mad wizard under his tower that he has stocked with treasure and monsters". Because then any arguments about stupid architectural choices - like "why would this tunnel dead-end into an alcove containing only a trapped statue" are easily answered by "crazy evil wizard - don't think too hard about it").

Exactly. Think about the two most famous megadungeons in D&D, Castle Greyhawk (Zagig is mad and a wizard) and Undermountain (Halaster is mad...and a wizard).
 

Sure it can make sense. This is dal quor the plane of dreams not kythri the churning chaos.

The thing is, I keep,records of my dreams and a recurring theme is maze-like buildings that are entirely too big. They contain incongrouous elements, like a convience store with a waterslide attached to one wall that somehow both starts and ends in the same place, or a bathroom the size of a large amiptheater, or a hotel or apartment building that seems to have a large moat, or an elevator built on the head of some giant snake that slithers up and down the shaft or possibly a giant that stands up and crouches down
 

Ah, I think we're coming at this one from opposite directions.

When I'm designing an adventure site my first thought is "what was its original in-fiction purpose" (or "why is it here"), followed by "what has happened to it since, if anything". Only after that will I overlay any purpose I-as-DM might have for that area now, as in "this was once the main hall, it's the biggest room, so that's where the Ogres are gonna live".

I switch between your method, and the reverse. It all depends. Sometimes I come up with the in-fiction purpose first, and sometimes I come up with the gameplay-purpose first. However, I do feel that thinking about the in-fiction purpose (if only a little bit) is very important for the quality of the dungeon.

Agreed re the kitchen-dining example. Servants' quarters often weren't all that close to their work site - kitchen staff at a mansion who spend their days in the basement might have their rooms in the attic, for example; or even live in a detached barracks.

Of course it is but an example. The purpose of the example was to show that some thought about the layout of the dungeon and how it would be used in the fiction, serves the quality of the dungeon well.

If the players/PCs aren't thorough in their explorations, that's on them. All they need to do is map the flippin' place and they'll soon see the unexplored passages.

This is where I disagree strongly. As the designer of the dungeon, you are ultimately responsible for how the players explore the dungeon. It is easy to miss a particular corridor at the start of the dungeon, especially when you're already deep into the dungeon and up to your neck in monsters.

Our goals as DM's may vary, and perhaps this is where the source of our disagreement lies. For me, I want my players to interact with as much of the dungeon as possible, so I didn't design half of it for nothing. The players are under no obligation to explore every dungeon 100%, but I sure can try my best to design the dungeon in such a way that most of it ends up being explored anyway. I try to find a balance between not making the dungeon too linear, and guiding my players through most of the dungeon.

I'm not too concerned about the tactical advantages/disadvantages of each entry point - they are what they are and the players/PCs can approach them as they like. They're not likely to have much information on what's inside unless something's telegraphed or (very rare IME) they're willing to spend the time to observe the place for a few days, thus making it quite intentionally difficult to make a "meaningful" choice* except by trial and error.

My personal preference is to give my players informed choices. They might not know all the advantages and disadvantages when picking an entry point, but I try to give them reasons to consider one or the other. This is why I often limited the number of entry points to about 2 or 3.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
This is where I disagree strongly. As the designer of the dungeon, you are ultimately responsible for how the players explore the dungeon.
Hell no I'm not! :)

It's my responsibility to design the dungeon* and present it neutrally, giving as best I can such information as the PCs would be able to observe while not giving away info they wouldn't be able to observe or learn. What the players/PCs do with the dungeon - or to it - and how they interact with it is entirely up to them. (even including turning their backs on the whole thing and going somewhere else, which has happened once or twice)

* - if I wrote it myself or significantly tweaked a published module; if I'm running a published module stock then only the presentation aspect applies.

It is easy to miss a particular corridor at the start of the dungeon, especially when you're already deep into the dungeon and up to your neck in monsters.
That's why you map, and once you're done with the obvious foes you check the map and see if there's any known exits, passages or doorways yet unexplored.

Our goals as DM's may vary, and perhaps this is where the source of our disagreement lies. For me, I want my players to interact with as much of the dungeon as possible, so I didn't design half of it for nothing. The players are under no obligation to explore every dungeon 100%, but I sure can try my best to design the dungeon in such a way that most of it ends up being explored anyway. I try to find a balance between not making the dungeon too linear, and guiding my players through most of the dungeon.
Yep, our goals differ a bit. I've had a party miss an entire adventure simply because they couldn't find the entrance! I didn't want to lead them by the nose (at the time I was actively trying to train myself away from doing this), and thus took the stance of if they find it they find it and if not then so be it. So they wandered around in the forest, beat up a few stray random monsters, eventually gave up, went back to town, and reported failure on the mission.

Which brings to mind another thing: IMO parties have to be allowed to outright fail now and then.

My personal preference is to give my players informed choices. They might not know all the advantages and disadvantages when picking an entry point, but I try to give them reasons to consider one of the other. This is why I often limited the number of entry points to about 2 or 3.
Another option, which I've seen in some published modules, is to give several entrances that on the surface look more or less identical. Examples: the three caves at the start of Tomb of Horrors, or the four (or more?) caves south of Suderham in A-3 Slave Lords. Without some hardcore divination it's trial-by-guess as to which one actually goes somewhere useful, and I don't mind that: a lucky party guesses correctly, a less-lucky party has to slog through some extra encounters (and thus weaken themselves) before hitting the meat of it.
 

Another option, which I've seen in some published modules, is to give several entrances that on the surface look more or less identical. Examples: the three caves at the start of Tomb of Horrors, or the four (or more?) caves south of Suderham in A-3 Slave Lords. Without some hardcore divination it's trial-by-guess as to which one actually goes somewhere useful, and I don't mind that: a lucky party guesses correctly, a less-lucky party has to slog through some extra encounters (and thus weaken themselves) before hitting the meat of it.

I'm not a fan of this approach at all. I don't want the success of the party to depend on a lucky guess. I prefer an approach where the players have things to consider about the entrance. I use this approach for intersections in the dungeon too. Sure, there are always unknowns. The players don't know the layout of the dungeon after all. But I prefer that they make an informed choice. For example:

-One point of entry may involve a heavy stone door. It may cause a lot of noise when opened, or it may require a strength check to get it to open, but it also offers a direct way in.

-Another point of entry may require the players to swim underwater, which is kinda scary, but ultimately may give them the element of surprise.

-Another point of entry may require the players to sneak past a powerful foe. Or through a tunnel covered in cobwebs.

-Maybe one of the doors has a scary demon face on it?

-Maybe one of the doors has a complicated lock?

To me this is far more interesting than three identical looking entrances.
 

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