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Message: <blockquote data-quote="wykthor" data-source="post: 3253671" data-attributes="member: 23814">Mouseferatu, I tend to lurk only at this board, but I couldn´t resist this topic. I loved the concept of the shadowcaster but was disappointed with the mechanics. I applaud the initiative to debate your material and I hope my comments below provide a positive feedback  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />It’s possible that in January I’ll play an one-shot of a 20th lvl adventure. Originally, I intended to use a warlock/evoker/eldritch theurge, but I talked with the DM and he agreed to a modified shadowcaster. If this session happens, I’ll post the results.    I really like the idea of bonus mysteries per se and tried to put some thoughts on it. If the calculations below are wrong, please correct me <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />.  Ex: A 20th lvl shadow caster has elite array (15 Int, 14 Cha), proper equipment (tome of clear thought +5, headband of intellect +6) but didn’t invest any of the ability points granted at 4/8/12/16/20, so the M.A.D. will have it’s full effect on INT, which will have a total score of 26 (+ 2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1/0 mysteries/day). I confess I didn’t understand the concept of a “floating” bonus, so I’ll stick with the extra mysteries applied to each level normally. So, assuming this shadowcaster learned two mysteries per mystery level, at 20th he has the following number of uses:1 (Su): 3 x mystery, 3 x mystery,+2 bonus2 (Su): 3 x mystery, 3 x mystery, +2 bonus3 (Su): 3 x mystery, 3 x mystery, +2 bonus, 4 (Sp): 2 x mystery, 2 x mystery,+2 bonus5 (Sp): 2 x mystery, 2 x mystery, +1 bonus6 (Sp): 2 x mystery, 2 x mystery, +1 bonus7 (Spell): 1 x mystery, 1 x mystery, +1 bonus8 (Spell): 1 x mystery, 1 x mystery, +1 bonus9 (Spell): 1 x mystery, 1 x mystery        For a quantitative analysis only, this shadowcaster will be able to cast, daily: 8/8/8/6/5/5/3/3/2IF the same shadowcaster wholly privileged INT for the bonus ability points, his final INT score would be 31 (+ 3/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1 mysteries). The total uses of mysteries per day would be: 9/9/8/6/6/6/3/3/3Comparing with a wizard with 15 (initial) + 5 (ability points) +5 (Tome) +6 (headband) may cast: 7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5 I know this is hardly a reliable comparison and I don’t want to equalize the shadowcaster with the wizard (a class that IS powerful, to say the least). But I think there is a valid point, considering the shadowcaster has a smaller repertoire than the sorcerer, which has more spell slots than a wizard. HOWEVER, I think the “high INT” shadowcaster has a pretty decent number of uses/day which can make some compensation even though the wizard has the advantage on the three highest spell levels.     Conclusion: The bonus mysteries are a necessity, but IMHO will only compensate if the multiple attribute dependence is somehow alleviated. Suggestion: Conceptually, I like the need of INT + CHA to employ the art of shadow: one to learn the subtleties of shadowcraft and the other to force the shadow to coalesce to your whim. However, instead of dividing the Save DC and the Extra Mysteries between two ability scores, apply both to ONE of these abilities, while the other remains responsible for the maximum mystery level possible to cast (i.e. needs 10+ Mystery level). This also solves the low save DC problem without reducing the shadowcaster to a single-attribute spellslinger. The ability not responsible for the DC and extra mysteries would still be important enough to guarantee the 2nd or 3rd highest attribute number (so a 13/14 with a +6 wondrous item grants access to the highest mysteries). I’d lower the final base Fort bonus to +6, though. Regarding WHICH ability would be responsible for bonus mysteries and Save DC, I recommend CHA for two reasons. First, I think INT has enough mechanical attractiveness on its own (skill points), so a player wouldn’t complain to much for not upping CON, while the expense of Cha just to fulfill high mystery requirements might cause grumbling ;-). Second, for fluffiness, I believe CHA becomes a more interesting choice for shadow channeling and empowerment than INTIn sum: I agree with the bonus mysteries’ idea, except I’d prefer Charisma and but maintain it in charge of the Save DCs.   I agree 100% on that. Respectfully, the worst trait I saw on the shadowcaster was the strictness of the paths. Eliminating this handicap goes a long way!Agreed. It also gives meaning to the paths beside their natural coolness <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt="8-)" title="Cool    8-)"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname="8-)" />Well, I’d support this idea, but not with the possibility of “losing” feats. I really don’t like that, sorry. Personally, I’d stick with the absence of “mystery-swapping” as, IMHO, it’s possible to plan ahead the mystery progression without much suffering. Personally, I’m not too fond of changing the mechanics of DCs in a class. Perhaps the suggestion above regarding a M.A.D less severe could solve the problem?  I agree 100%Final Considerations: 1) Regarding shadowcaster feats, I have a question: Do Ability Focus/Empower Spell-like Ability/Quicken Spell-like Ability feats affect Initiate Mysteries or one Master Mystery which has been chosen by the Favored Mystery Feat?   2) Besides the problems discussed above, I believe there’s a last “underpower issue”:  the class lacks real offensive options from character levels 2-4. While at 1st level the shadowcaster can count on Arrow of Dusk and Mesmerizing Shades, from then on until level 5 (i.e. killing shadows becomes available), the character suffers from lack of good mysteries, especially from 2nd level.</blockquote>

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