The Simplification of Epic Characters

[Pour]

I've been hearing a lot lately on "needless complexity" and many say the sheer number of options for Epic characters ranks high on the list. As my parties edge level 20, I'm beginning to wonder if I should take certain measures to address this issue.

I suppose before I go any further I should ask myself whether or not these many options are an impediment to my games. Yes, and no. We play within the system, and the system has worked for us, but I'm already implementing the Ogre Rule (all damage is maxed on bloodied targets) to speed combat and alter tactics. If shaving some options further improves combat pacing, I'm willing to at least approach my players with it. On the other hand, my players enjoy their Paragon options, and in combat they're usually pretty good with power and item usage, as well as tactics.

If I were to simplify Epic characters, I was considering a Rule of 2: maximum 2 at-wills, 2 encounters, 2 dailies, 2 utilities, and 2 magic item powers. No more than 1 immediate interrupt among all of them. In addition, each PC has what's called a Paragon Mantle (basically a Theme designed for Paragon characters and which informs/allows them to customize Epic Destinies by power source- each gives 2-3 other powers).

So ideally my PCs would have 10 powers, but more likely 13. As I understand it, my level 19 warlock PC currently has 29 powers including items. My druid PC has even more, when including his artifact boots.

My question is whether or not this 2/2/2/2/2 effectively hoses them? I know magic items were baked into the game math, and if I had to grant the inherent bonus so be it, but would a limit of 2 item powers seriously hamper them? Plenty of DMs avoid items with powers just for the hassle and I assume do fine.

Additionally, with humans and the bonus at-will, I thought I'd just let them keep it.

 

[the Jester]

Caveat: I haven't run 4e to epic levels yet- working on it!- so this is all imho based on up to mid-high-paragon stuff.

I don't think the restriction on item powers hoses them, but having a limit of 2 encounter and daily powers sure seems like it would.

I mean, high level solos have well over 1000 hit points. The pcs need the damage output those four per-encounters deliver, even gaining 1[W] or 1dx on most at wills.

I also wonder if your Ogre Damage rule can actually hurt damage output for some types of characters (crit monkeys), though I haven't seen a crit monkey in play, so again I don't know how often it actually comes up. This variant also devalues high-crit-bonus-dice magic weapons like vicious and vorpal, which are much more valuable at higher levels (as you get more attacks and more opportunities to score a critical hit).

If you haven't yet, I strongly suggest you run this by your players for feedback.

The thing about the complexity level of high level 4e pcs is that it's completely unmanageable if you haven't built the character up over time. I learned early in the 4e life to never, ever, ever, ever run a one-shot with pregens above about 12th level in 4e and expect the party to perform reasonably well.

Take those same pregens and make them the characters that the players have been building up since first level, that they know how to run effectively, and it isn't nearly so bad, assuming your players aren't the type to think over every option for an hour before deciding what to do.

 

[RangerWickett]

I don't think the number of powers is itself an issue, but certainly the number of reactions and interrupts can be crazy. Mind you, this comes only from running a three-shot of 30th level PCs vs Lolth, but the amount of actions the party was taking got ridiculous.

I was, though, pretty fond of the druid/master of moments who had an extra minor action each round, which he could use to have his summoned monsters attack.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Getting rid of immediate reactions and interrupts would help a lot. Those can really slow things down, where one of them can cause the BBEG to reroll a bunch of attacks and such.

In my online 4E game, those jsut kill everything and slow the game to a crawl.

 

[Pour]

They've been playing their characters since late Heroic, one PC since level 1. In that respect it would be grossly unfair to cut the powers out from under them now. Like I said up post, they run them fairly well and timely exactly because of their familiarity- though I'm willing to try house rules to speed what I imagine will be some pretty long and potentially complex combats.

Even still, I appreciate the combats for what they are and so do the players. Maybe, as I kind of suspected, I don't really have the issue of complexity as DM. Epic complexity is really the players' burden and, given that is about the only mechanics they are responsible for at the table, they are quite adept at them. I haven't had a complaint for the options given them, not one.

As for Ogre Rule, only critical hits would deal the critical bonus dice from weapons, and max on bloodied targets, so I think it still preserves the power of the natural 20. I think it also changes the nature of strikers and allows them some broader tactics- aka bloodying enemies and moving on, thus enabling other roles to deal finishing damage- or else being really damned effective on single targets. It also adds more value to combat healing, the need to keep PCs above bloodied given a whole new incentive. Certain feats and utilities might also seen increased value in regards to bloodied condition, though I don't know them off hand.

That's my theory as of now, anyway. I'll let you know how it plays out come the next few weeks. I'm testing Ogre Rule tomorrow night.

*Edit: I would still consider the limit of one immediate action or reaction, per PC, though. I cringe when the swordmage in my one group starts getting into her groove.

 

[keterys]

Reducing interrupts to one max would be great.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I have simplified epic level characters by allowing/requiring them to take powers multiple times to avoid # of power limitations.

Keep the normal rule that higher level power slots can be used to take low level powers, just allow a low level power to be taken more than once.

I have made a one-shot with upper- level paragons, and I rewrote the PCs as monster statblocks. 1 basic attack (made from an at-will), 1 at-will 2 encounters, 1 daily attacks and 2-5 minor or triggered actions. Several also got traits loosely based on feat/item combos.
Like "FrostCheese", or "Very Stealthy"
The encounter powers got recharged by events, and the party got a daily back during the adventure.

It worked pretty well, except for the one young teenager at the table.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I also considered giving each epic PC a "do something cool" ability that represented their ability to bend reality to their will. but it was arbitrary and somewhat complicated.

Thematic Attack
Damage would average 8+level, vs a Burst 1. Damage could be raised or lowered by adding conditions, changing # of targets, or by creating effects outside the PCs role.
The power could not have miss/effects, but was reliable if it missed all targets.