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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The Slow Death of Epic Tier
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<blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 5393852" data-attributes="member: 58197"><p>Because he has more versatility. He can do cool new things that he couldn't do before. Playing a wizard in AD&D, my ears perked up every time I heard the slightest hint that there might be another wizard's spellbook to be copied from or stolen--not because I'd get access to spells more powerful than those I already had (that wouldn't happen until I went up a level, which was a slow, slow process in the games I played in), but because I'd expand my repertoire.</p><p></p><p>Like I said, plenty of RPGs have very shallow power curves, in which PCs advance mainly through expanding their array of options rather than increasing raw power level. Most point-buy systems follow this logic. A GURPS character can, and often does, start out with skill ratings as high as they can profitably go in a narrow range of skills. Character points acquired during play are then spent to expand that range rather than trying to push the existing skill ratings higher.</p><p></p><p>(Now, that said, it's true that the power curve will never be totally flat. <em>Lightning bolt</em> is not more powerful than <em>fireball,</em> but a wizard with both spells is stronger than a wizard with only one, simply because she's got more options--when faced with an enemy resistant to one, she can use the other. But the power gains from increased versatility are quite small compared to the gains from sheer number inflation.)</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>The point of battle is to defeat the enemy. Once in a while, you can get away with having a recurring villain escape or spare the PCs' lives, but it becomes an obvious cheat if you do it over and over.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>And this lends itself to a lengthy adventure cycle how, exactly? If these villains are so smart, they won't fight the PCs at all until they have an overwhelming advantage--and then they will curbstomp them, shoot them all in the head, and burn the bodies.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah. You do. You need a freakin' forklift. That's my whole problem.</p><p></p><p>Part of the reason I don't know much about Lex Luthor is that most comic series put my suspension of disbelief through more of a pounding than I have patience for. And even if I personally didn't care about verisimilitude, my players won't let me get away with nearly as much crap as comic book writers do.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>High-heroic monsters are strictly nothing at epic tier. They're not even worth bothering to include in the fight; they won't do any damage and will fall over dead if anyone so much as breathes their way. They're window dressing. Same goes for low paragon, and in the latter half of epic tier even high paragon foes will be largely irrelevant.</p><p></p><p>So what you've got here is 5-6 epic monsters that provide real opposition, and maybe 20 high paragon monsters that serve as cannon fodder and will fall off the radar completely about halfway through the tier.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dausuul, post: 5393852, member: 58197"] Because he has more versatility. He can do cool new things that he couldn't do before. Playing a wizard in AD&D, my ears perked up every time I heard the slightest hint that there might be another wizard's spellbook to be copied from or stolen--not because I'd get access to spells more powerful than those I already had (that wouldn't happen until I went up a level, which was a slow, slow process in the games I played in), but because I'd expand my repertoire. Like I said, plenty of RPGs have very shallow power curves, in which PCs advance mainly through expanding their array of options rather than increasing raw power level. Most point-buy systems follow this logic. A GURPS character can, and often does, start out with skill ratings as high as they can profitably go in a narrow range of skills. Character points acquired during play are then spent to expand that range rather than trying to push the existing skill ratings higher. (Now, that said, it's true that the power curve will never be totally flat. [i]Lightning bolt[/i] is not more powerful than [i]fireball,[/i] but a wizard with both spells is stronger than a wizard with only one, simply because she's got more options--when faced with an enemy resistant to one, she can use the other. But the power gains from increased versatility are quite small compared to the gains from sheer number inflation.) The point of battle is to defeat the enemy. Once in a while, you can get away with having a recurring villain escape or spare the PCs' lives, but it becomes an obvious cheat if you do it over and over. And this lends itself to a lengthy adventure cycle how, exactly? If these villains are so smart, they won't fight the PCs at all until they have an overwhelming advantage--and then they will curbstomp them, shoot them all in the head, and burn the bodies. Yeah. You do. You need a freakin' forklift. That's my whole problem. Part of the reason I don't know much about Lex Luthor is that most comic series put my suspension of disbelief through more of a pounding than I have patience for. And even if I personally didn't care about verisimilitude, my players won't let me get away with nearly as much crap as comic book writers do. High-heroic monsters are strictly nothing at epic tier. They're not even worth bothering to include in the fight; they won't do any damage and will fall over dead if anyone so much as breathes their way. They're window dressing. Same goes for low paragon, and in the latter half of epic tier even high paragon foes will be largely irrelevant. So what you've got here is 5-6 epic monsters that provide real opposition, and maybe 20 high paragon monsters that serve as cannon fodder and will fall off the radar completely about halfway through the tier. [/QUOTE]
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