The Slow Death of Epic Tier
Nahat Anoj
First Post
Honestly, I've been thinking lately that the only tier I ever have fun playing is Heroic tier. This is because the mechanical options are easy to juggle, and I like the theme of the tier. It also feels like the math works best here.
I'd love to have a good experience with Paragon or Epic games, but the thing that ruins them every time for me is the sheer number of options, triggered abilities, and so on. It's just too much (for me).
I'd love to have a good experience with Paragon or Epic games, but the thing that ruins them every time for me is the sheer number of options, triggered abilities, and so on. It's just too much (for me).
Ryujin
Legend
It's sad. Our group's usual DM doesn't want to run into Epic, largely based on the (lack of) quality support for Epic Tier. I was looking forward to it, but he cut us off upon reaching level 20. In our our new campaign, he has already stated that it's likely to top out between 16th and 18th.
As DM I resolved to go into epic, but I am also re-considering this. We have played this party since lvl 1, we are now level 15 going on 16, and Im tempted to bring it all to a halt soon.
It is mainly the difficulty of the complexity of the characters, both for me and for the players. The other thing is...Im just tired. I enjoy DM'ing, but have been doing it for our group since 4e came out. I wanna pass the mantle damn it, not keep going through epic!
It is mainly the difficulty of the complexity of the characters, both for me and for the players. The other thing is...Im just tired. I enjoy DM'ing, but have been doing it for our group since 4e came out. I wanna pass the mantle damn it, not keep going through epic!
invokethehojo
First Post
Ya, a year or so ago we decided to speed up level progression and play from 1st to 30th level with the same characters (a huge feat for my group). Alas, it didn't happen, the local gaming store shut down and several players dropped out. But as we played we came to the same conclusion as most of you, the higher the level you get, the less fun play seems to be because no one wants to give up the things that make their character cool, but everyone's cool things drag down the game so much. We decided to play through 11th level then stop, so the last several sessions we had paragon tier coolness. It felt like a great way to end a campaign and we enjoyed it. We also all decided that heroic tier was all we were interested in.
I ran a campaign through Epic, and it held together pretty well up until 27-28 or so, and then the combos and sheer power of the party started to be really hard to balance against.
I think Epic remains perfectly viable, for the most part. Requires a bit more care with what items players can get, which the new rarity system can help with. I'm not too concerned about it being too 'generic' - for my group, the chance to explore some of the mythos of the core setting was an excellent opportunity.
It's true that essentials doesn't focus on it much, but I think that is intentional, and I don't think that is indicative of the Epic tier being abandoned entirely. Monster Vault is aimed at new players and what will be useful for them - reading too much else into that might be a mistake.
I think Epic remains perfectly viable, for the most part. Requires a bit more care with what items players can get, which the new rarity system can help with. I'm not too concerned about it being too 'generic' - for my group, the chance to explore some of the mythos of the core setting was an excellent opportunity.
It's true that essentials doesn't focus on it much, but I think that is intentional, and I don't think that is indicative of the Epic tier being abandoned entirely. Monster Vault is aimed at new players and what will be useful for them - reading too much else into that might be a mistake.
RangerWickett
Legend
Right now E.N. Publishing is working on our next campaign saga, which we intend to go through epic level. I just hope people are still playing the game in 2 years when the last adventure comes out. (4e was announced mid-way through the 3.5 version of War of the Burning Sky, and it really killed our sales.)
We're planning far in advance so we can set up legitimate epic challenges for the PCs on the same plane. I'd like to be able to playtest some of the encounters with my local group to see how complicated epic is, and to avoid pitfalls. I did once run a 20th level one-shot, and I foolishly put a pair of mindflayers in a single encounter, which turned everything into a horrid stun-fest.
Right now I'm playing in an 11th level game, though, using MM3 and Essentials monsters, and it is legitimately fun. It's a beer-and-pretzels game, so pretty much all we do is combats to play with our toys; other people run roleplaying-heavy games in other systems. My main take-away with 4e combat, though, is that the game assumes too damned much of it. I'd be content with two or three combats per level, and certainly not 10.
We're planning far in advance so we can set up legitimate epic challenges for the PCs on the same plane. I'd like to be able to playtest some of the encounters with my local group to see how complicated epic is, and to avoid pitfalls. I did once run a 20th level one-shot, and I foolishly put a pair of mindflayers in a single encounter, which turned everything into a horrid stun-fest.
Right now I'm playing in an 11th level game, though, using MM3 and Essentials monsters, and it is legitimately fun. It's a beer-and-pretzels game, so pretty much all we do is combats to play with our toys; other people run roleplaying-heavy games in other systems. My main take-away with 4e combat, though, is that the game assumes too damned much of it. I'd be content with two or three combats per level, and certainly not 10.
(Similar sentiments as previous posts).
I completely burned out on DM'ing 4E sometime in the middle of paragon tier. The players in my previous 4E game also burned out too, and our game eventually collapsed due to less and less interest with everybody just "going through the motions".
In general, we found 4E paragon tier somewhat easier to play in comparison to level 10+ in 3E/3.5E D&D. But overall, 4E paragon tier still didn't do it for us and still felt tedious.
At this point, I don't know what can be done to make 4E paragon and epic tiers enjoyable. I don't know if it is even possible to do so.
I completely burned out on DM'ing 4E sometime in the middle of paragon tier. The players in my previous 4E game also burned out too, and our game eventually collapsed due to less and less interest with everybody just "going through the motions".
In general, we found 4E paragon tier somewhat easier to play in comparison to level 10+ in 3E/3.5E D&D. But overall, 4E paragon tier still didn't do it for us and still felt tedious.
At this point, I don't know what can be done to make 4E paragon and epic tiers enjoyable. I don't know if it is even possible to do so.
RangerWickett
Legend
I want to ask, for folks playing paragon and epic tier, how many encounters did you have per level? I feel like the main thing keeping the game I'm in fresh is that the GM kills us all every few levels and we all make new characters. I imagine I would've gotten pretty bored with 4e's powers system if I'd kept my first half-elf paladin (Bernie, who died to ongoing fire damage) for 11 levels.
Combat ends up getting repetitive, even with all the cool stuff you and monsters can do. Even if you've got a lot of quest XP, if the average group is playing 5 combats per level, that's 50 different iterations of the same general attacks.
I've run mid-paragon one-shots, where the party had a total of 7 combat encounters. Each was distinctive because the characters and their powers were new. But for a long-term game, I just can't see having that many combats. Give the party two chances to use their powers, then level them up so they get a new toy. Spread those 50 or 60 combat encounters over 30 levels, and things should stay fresher.
Combat ends up getting repetitive, even with all the cool stuff you and monsters can do. Even if you've got a lot of quest XP, if the average group is playing 5 combats per level, that's 50 different iterations of the same general attacks.
I've run mid-paragon one-shots, where the party had a total of 7 combat encounters. Each was distinctive because the characters and their powers were new. But for a long-term game, I just can't see having that many combats. Give the party two chances to use their powers, then level them up so they get a new toy. Spread those 50 or 60 combat encounters over 30 levels, and things should stay fresher.
