The Slow Death of Epic Tier

[Herschel]

I think the key is variety of combats and limited bad guy status effects. Weakened and stunned really sucks even when you get to higher heroic because there's a lot of cool combos to try out that are edge cases and when you finally get the chance...."half damage on using two dailies" or "stunned, too bad for you!"

I've played a charcter from level 1 who is now in P2 at level 15. He ran in to an adventure where basically he went forward and was repeatedly stunlocked for teh first half of the battle. Makes defending teh party a bit tough. Luckily there were two defenders. It was one of those combo annoyances where the first one hits then the second one gets to stun if you're imonbilized/dazed/weakened/whatever automatically. So getting hit by the initial attack basically screws you. That's not fun, and stuff like that is easy enough to fall back on in Paragon and higher. I ran a game in to paragon but the players wanted to play Dark Sun when it came out, so we re-set to level 1, but that was more because of teh new shiny than disliking the tier play.

 

[Badwe]

I started a campaign back in august of 2009 at level 1 with 3 players. We have since gained 5 players and lost 2, leaving us at 6, over the course of just over a year. The players have just hit level 10. my original plan was to just run all the modules: H1-H3, P1-P3, E1-E3. This changed almost immediately as one of the players was in my original campaign where I ran H1 (then at player request discarded premade adventures), so I improved 1-3 then tied it into H2. Plans changed around partway through H2, when Revenge of the Giants hit and it sounded too interesting to pass up, as well as creating little holes of levels, from 11-12 and 18-20, for me to dip my toe into making up my own stories and encounters without having to full-bore commit.

Plans have changed again, after having read something from a WotC person to the effect of "maybe heroic tier takes too long, paragon tier goes by too quick, and epic tier probably only needed to be 5 levels long). At this point, I have ponied up the money for the big orcus figure and i'll be damned if i'm going to let that thing be eternally window dressing. We're on the verge of losing another player, but we have a replacement lined up. I knew going into this i'd have to be prepared to bring in new players as people moved away. Now plans have changed again, and to ensure we get to 30 in a timely fashion, the campaign is just going to flat out skip levels 19 through 25, and based on the reviews of E1-E3 i will likely be rolling my own encounters instead of relying on them to get my players to orcus.

of course, it's taken a year to get to level 10, so we'll see how long it takes to get to 18.

 

[Ryujin]

If you have too few encounters then as you level up you can be dropping multiple daily powers in a fight and that skews things. If a PC at level 25 can bring 3 or so daily powers each fight it will be difficult to challenge them.

Never really much of a problem, in our group, because the DM is good at keeping things going. For example we had one string of 4 or 5 abbreviated encounters, without so much as a short rest, because one of the party dropped, was captured, and the enemy ran off with her.

He also tends to drop us into extra-dimensional spaces, in which our powers and items that would let us rest in an extra-dimensional space won't work. That part is rather annoying, when I specifically picked up an Exodus Knife, so that we could catch a rest in dangerous areas.

 

[renau1g]

Never really much of a problem, in our group, because the DM is good at keeping things going. For example we had one string of 4 or 5 abbreviated encounters, without so much as a short rest, because one of the party dropped, was captured, and the enemy ran off with her.

He also tends to drop us into extra-dimensional spaces, in which our powers and items that would let us rest in an extra-dimensional space won't work. That part is rather annoying, when I specifically picked up an Exodus Knife, so that we could catch a rest in dangerous areas.

Then you've certainly passed more than 2 fights per level. I was responding to Wickett's comment about maybe 2 encounters/level. TBH if the DM puts interesting encounters together you don't mind that there's a bit of repetition, but I would never want 10/level. My DM usually has around 4-5 or so per level. We don't use XP, we level up as the story demands it and that's about 1 every 2-3 sessions. We only play once every 3-4 weeks though so we need to move things along at a decent enough pace.

Oh, and avoid stunning monsters, unless it's a 1/encounter that lasts 1 turn. There's nothing worse as a player than having absolutely nothing to do on your turn. Dazed is fine if not overused because you can still do things. At least with weakened you can still contribute, just need to delay on your big powers for a round. Just for the love of Orcus, do not any monsters that can stun at-will...or dominate at-will. That also sucks.

 

[Aegeri]

Having wrote about epic tier before on this forum, this thread naturally caught my eye. I had to bring this quote out of the blog post:

However, when asked about it at last year’s Gen Con, the designers stated that the reason there was no DMG3 was that very few campaigns were running an Epic Tier campaign.

The point of the matter is that there is a distinct lack of support for epic tier. I think on this forum I've probably run more epic tier campaigns than most (2 in fact). Epic tier before MM3 was incredibly intimidating and very difficult to run for numerous reasons. Now that epic monsters have suitable teeth, this barrier has all but disappeared but there are now other more irritating barriers. For one, there is no ready description on how to run an epic tier game without going to the planes.

A key example made in the blog about the likes of Eberron is that it can be very difficult to figure out what the epic tier looks like without going to the planes. Eberron specifically limits high level NPCs - such as the Dragonmarked houses - so high level players are practically invulnerable to many of the core organizations of the world. Even Forgotten Realms though has an issue with the epic tier looking like you're going to the planes and dealing with the gods directly.

This is compounded by the lack of epic tier antagonists that aren't planar. For example you have devils, demons and such forth occupying a good chunk of rank and file epic tier monsters. When the MV - as an example - adds a paltry 13 epic monsters into the game that is truly sad. Not to mention the MV doesn't even bother adding in ancient dragons to the game either - equally as disappointing. Our one main worldly epic tier antagonist isn't even in the latest core book!

Going back to the original quote, Wizards are creating for themselves a self fulfilling cycle.

1) Many DMs have a lot of difficulty getting to grips with epic tier.
2) Rather than run epic tier, it's easier to cut off a campaign at paragon.
3) So many DMs do not run epic tier campaigns.
4) Wizards sees that DMs aren't running epic tier, so publishes nothing on epic tier campaigns that would help the DM from 1 in the first place.

Therefore, this becomes a self fulling cycle for Wizards where their lack of support ensures that most DMs won't touch epic tier. Those that do have a severe uphill struggle (like I did) until they get the concepts behind making encounters. This *has* been changed a lot due to the new damage that monsters do. Pre-MM3, a fighter could lock down 5 monsters and suffer no threat because of their pathetic damage. Now post-MM3, the same fighter is usually out for the rest of the encounter because he's been dropped dead by the huge damage output he then suffers.

This doesn't change that epic tier is basically where a DM should feel most free in designing whacky terrain, encounters and similar though. Yet there are no guidelines on this and a battle against 5 mooks just doesn't feel suitably "epic" whatsoever. Now put those mooks on a ship, which is falling through the elemental chaos to crash into a massive daemonic fortress in a last ditch suicide assault and now you have a genuinely "epic" scenario. But again, this doesn't help a DM who says "Why should my epic campaign go to the planes?".

Let me make it clear that Monster Vault is an excellent book: It is worth your money and you should absolutely buy it. But the complete lack of epic creatures is a real insult and doesn't help this situation at all. Given the next monster book is in the Nentir Vale and the way MV is set up, I would not be optimistic about further epic monsters remotely appearing within that book. In a sad way, MM3 is the book that finally fixed the major problem with epic tier: Making challenging encounters without massive system mastery from a DM in designing optimal groups of monsters. It appears that work will simply be undone by the complete lack of further epic tier monsters.

Even in player options I couldn't help but notice the large number of heroic tier feats, elimination of feats limited by tier (EG epic defense feats are now heroic feats that scale into epic) and the lack of new PPs and EDs in both Heroes of the Forgotten Lands/Kingdoms. Compare this with the PHB, which had a few options for PPs for each class and 4 or so EDs initially.

Personally, aside from the fact DMs are not wishing to go into a tier that isn't that well supported I also feel that Wizards doesn't truly "get" epic tier either. Although the monster design finally reflects what epic tier is like, it's taken a long time to get this far and I don't think Wizards have a full grasp on problems in epic. For example, solos like Lolth are still incredibly impressive but they don't have enough ways of dealing with daze/stun/dominate. A good stat block doesn't matter when you spend every round dazed or stunned - as PCs can cycle these powers (particularly non-save ends powers) consistently. MV dragons have got this right though, just ending these effects automatically and getting a partial turn elsewhere (that can also end these effects before their proper turn - making chain dazing much harder).

I want to ask, for folks playing paragon and epic tier, how many encounters did you have per level? I feel like the main thing keeping the game I'm in fresh is that the GM kills us all every few levels and we all make new characters.

The key with epic is that you should be pressing players for time. Epic should not be a tier where retreat and going "Let's just rest for eight hours" is viable. World ending threats or major antagonists plots are not building now: They are fully in motion. Time should be the greatest enemy of the PCs. I recommend - at minimum - four to five encounters per extended rest. With Probably eight or so encounters per level. Given you no longer need ridiculous ELs to challenge PCs with MM3 maths, this is not the issue it used to be.

The problem with very limited encounters, say 1-2 is that epic PCs are going to tear these to pieces so easily it won't even be funny. They'll dump every daily they can into them and you'll never be able to budge them. Even with MM3 and beyond monsters really having substantial teeth, nothing really helps having a huge number of large area burst dailies dumped on them immediately every fight. Additionally you need to introduce terrain mechanics in a slow fashion: For example the plunging ship as an example. That needs a few encounters where the PCs are threatened - but not direly - so they can get an idea how things work so the really hard encounters are actually hard.

When it comes to finally designing things, you shouldn't be afraid to throw the entire kitchen sink at your players in epic. In my last epic tier campaign, I was too conservative and didn't really go as far as I could have with the final antagonists. Even so, the final encounters were still challenging and no walk overs whatsoever (even with a silly rules mistake on punisher of the gods - whoops). Do not just try to have one encounter at the end and think that will be enough: No solo however well designed will survive 5-6 PCs dumping every daily they have into them rounds 1-2 plus action points and extra leader attacks. Instead make them fight through the antagonists armies first and then have to deal with him: This is more challenging, more "epic" and produces a far better balanced decision making process.

It's important to realize too that "Attrition" no longer works anywhere near as effectively at epic. Five encounters at epic is not in any way equivalent to five encounters in heroic. Five encounters in heroic without a rest is practically getting to TPK territory. Five encounters in epic is putting a strain on encounter and daily resources to get back those powers. In epic this is really important: You want to put pressure on those resources because if they have them in those 1-2 encounters, then it means a daily "dump and retrieve" is simple to do. This will ensure all those encounters are really trivial, unless you go massively out of your way to make exotic terrain or similar (which is often just confusing or unfair feeling to players, as I learned from my own experiments).

Additionally killing PCs at epic is neither bad or something you should worry about. A tough encounter is more than welcome to squish a PC into horrible goo. Death at epic is almost completely irrelevant by the games rules, due to the number of EDs that don't let you die anyway and how cheap/easy ressurection is. So you can feel free to make encounters on average harder than you would at other tiers: In fact I believe this should be firmly encouraged.

Take the new MV Balor, it's beheading blade is amazing by standards set by previous epic monsters. It's a close burst 3 power with a 15-20 critical range that deals 74 + 3d12 damage on a critical. That's a substantial amount of pain and really gives the PCs an immediate idea that this guy really means business. Imagine two of them in a level 28 or so encounter and you can see just how sadistic this can get. Yet this is perfectly fine for epic tier and you should constantly bear in mind that PCs are ridiculous by this point. Additionally huge damage powers are far better for monsters at this point than status effects.

A stun delays the inevitable by a round, doing huge amounts of damage actually changes the tactics and dynamics. Players feel angry and annoyed when their turn - which can take a bit of time at epic - comes up and they can't do anything. On the other hand, when you're bleeding to death and the monsters are bearing down on you, tactical options and choices become paramount: And the game is more fun. Making decisions is fun. Missing your turn because you can't do anything is not. The odd status effect is fine of course, but don't overdo it and instead really focus team monster on damage.

Having played an epic campaign that was pre and then post-MM3 the difference was amazing. Damage is really what epic lacked and when you can genuinely beat the snot out of PCs for 3 encounters, that fourth encounter is no longer anywhere near as trivial. Status effects like daze/stun that were essential to encounters being challenging - merely in a delaying act for the pittance of damage to add up - were now almost lethal. A stunned character with two MM3 level brutes was in an incredibly precarious position.

So I would say, at minimum 4-5 encounters per level (with all those encounters being one after the other, to avoid the drop and retrieve effect at epic). Don't be afraid about genuinely upping the difficulty, zany terrain and other effects. Press PCs for time so that resting simply snowballs the enemies forces into ever increasing unstoppable masses (or costs some important objective, has the King killed brutally or his army utterly routed and similar).

 

[Bold or Stupid]

I think Aegeri's points all hold true. I've run a single campaign up through epic tier (finishing with defeating Orcus and then curing the party member who killed him of Abyssal corruption). I found that the best bits were short adventures (5-8 encounters) that encompassed a level. Most were even set in the World. The major factor I added was "price of failure" basically if they messed up they would lose some world aspect they held dear, usually the people they rescued from their destroyed homeland. I used two of the pre written adventures, Death's Reach was too long (and I skipped the first section totally), Kingdom of Ghouls worked mostly because I added some personal interest in the form of a old friend held prisoner. I also tried to make sure that they got victories with every adventure, killing one of Orcus' exarchs, destroying a major force of his, or taking steps to rescue their homeland and begin to rebuild it.

It helps that I had a central theme running through the campaign right from the start. I think the thing that helped Epic tier (and the whole campaign) really zing was that they had a focus all the time on building power to defeat Orcus, this drove the characters on and kept the players interested. I think future DM guides need to focus on how helpful having a story planned out is in running D&D.

 

[ArcaneSpringboard]

As DM I resolved to go into epic, but I am also re-considering this. We have played this party since lvl 1, we are now level 15 going on 16, and Im tempted to bring it all to a halt soon.

It is mainly the difficulty of the complexity of the characters, both for me and for the players. The other thing is...Im just tired. I enjoy DM'ing, but have been doing it for our group since 4e came out. I wanna pass the mantle damn it, not keep going through epic!

I sometimes wonder if it's not the complexity of the characters, but the magic items that are causing the problem. However, I think the changes to the magic items will speed things up.

First, the DM can control what types of items go out (and more of them will be common, which are more 'property' type items anyways). Second, you don't have to decide whether or not to use your precious Daily Item uses anymore.

 

[ArcaneSpringboard]

Ya, a year or so ago we decided to speed up level progression and play from 1st to 30th level with the same characters (a huge feat for my group). Alas, it didn't happen, the local gaming store shut down and several players dropped out. But as we played we came to the same conclusion as most of you, the higher the level you get, the less fun play seems to be because no one wants to give up the things that make their character cool, but everyone's cool things drag down the game so much. We decided to play through 11th level then stop, so the last several sessions we had paragon tier coolness. It felt like a great way to end a campaign and we enjoyed it. We also all decided that heroic tier was all we were interested in.

In my first campaign I was actually doubling XP to speed up levelling but we found that it wasn't very good. First, it didn't give the players much time to get used to their powers. Second, the magic items were given out twice as fast as well, which was a pain.

 

[Aegeri]

Actually now you mention it Ranger, I would. I would love to go back to Tides of Dust, draw back out the Sunken Tomb of Xy'loteph and repair that with the knowledge I have now. Especially with the incredibly good Astral Kraken from MM3.

 

[Raunalyn]

I'm curious if anyone has played or run a Dark Sun campaign in the epic tier. Dark Sun has an entirely different "feel" than your run of the mill game world, so I wonder how it plays out with the different rules and such that are in effect on Athas.