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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Barastrondo" data-source="post: 5394000" data-attributes="member: 3820">I don't think it'd be dumb. Basically, I'm unsold. I'm interested in being sold, but as we've talked about earlier, the sell is difficult if you haven't prepared for epic from the beginning. And "heroic tier villains aren't as noteworthy" is an anti-sell in any stripe, hence why I objected.Sure, but it's also possible to "dial down." There's no reason that fantasy analogues of the whole Daredevil mythos couldn't play out in heroic tier other than personal preference. So that's why I'm interested in finding out not just what epic tier has to offer other than "the same, but bigger," but novel ways to apply it to an existing world.To go back to D&D, one of my favorite modules from my youth (at least conceptually; it had a few hiccups in execution from a modern eye) was Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords. You were up against a council of crimelords there. And it was recommended for levels 4-9. That was immensely appealing: it sold the idea that you could go up against potent villains and make a difference, even at single digit levels. Cutting the head off an immense slaving ring? That's fantastic.  And also it's rooted in the four-color tradition. Recurring villains are easier to justify if they don't actually get away with all that many atrocities. But use the Joker in his modern "every time he shows up another couple of civilians will die horribly" incarnation, and players may well feel personally responsible for every person he kills because they didn't put him down forever. And since part of the appeal of RPGs is to have your guy do the smart thing instead of the "play to the audience and keep the franchise going" thing, they may much rather kill the Joker first chance they get than have a series of recurring conflicts with him. A passive reader and an active player's needs are different.It's not about reputation or "achievements." It's about the fact that D&D is flat-out a game about lethal solutions: slay the dragon instead of driving it off, kill the vampire lord instead of putting him in prison. It's based on works where the villain of the piece ends up with a sword in his gut rather than showing up once a year for several decades to keep the franchise going.Certainly my players are pretty damned good about wanting to build institutions and forge relationships. But if I were to have a hobgoblin warlord sack a city, with hundreds or thousands of innocents slain in the process, my players wouldn't want to kill him to earn cred. They'd want to kill him to make sure not one more person dies thanks to his actions. As a recurring villain, if they cross swords with him multiple times and he keeps escaping, and the NPCs they care about keep dying, my players at least would be frustrated and feeling disempowered. That's why I use a fairly comic-book recurring villain model for Champions, but with D&D handle my villains differently.</blockquote>

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