The term 'Gain' in Polymorph.

[Jhulae]

Okay. Since there have been some nitpicks on polymorph already, here's another one.

Alter Self leaves abilities alone. Polymorph works as Alter Self with one change being that "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form". That means if someone polymorphed into a giant, they would 'gain' the giant's strength, dex, etc. Now, what if someone polymorphed into a cat? Would they 'gain' a strength lower than their natural strength? If so, that's not a gain, that's a loss.

The spell specifies that you 'gain' abilities, not lose them. So really then, does it mean that when you polymorph you retain your original scores (as in alter self) unless the new form has a higher stat in any (or all) of the three that change?

 

[Camarath]

I believe that the meaning of the verb gain as it is used in the Polymorph spell is "to cause to be obtained or given".

 

[Jhulae]

But, in a way then, that makes a 4th level spell less powerful than a 2nd level spell.

What happens if a wizard with a 14 strength and 16 dex polymorphs into, say, a halfling or an elf? Better yet, what happens if a succubus does so? Just what are the stat numbers they would 'gain'? It seems odd that their stats would drop with polymorph, whereas they would stay at their 'natural' (and higher) values with a less powerful spell.

Doesn't make sense, does it?

 

[Hypersmurf]

But, in a way then, that makes a 4th level spell less powerful than a 2nd level spell.

If used suboptimally, yeah.

Lightning Bolt is more powerful than Shocking Grasp. But if you want to hit one enemy who's surrounded by your allies, the touch attack is better-suited to the situation.

If you want to turn into a hill giant, you want Polymorph. But if you're a tough, strong wizard who wants to turn into a halfling, Alter Self is a spell better-suited to the task.

-Hyp.

 

[Jhulae]

Yeah, I understand that, Hyp.

But, what about creatures that have no choice but to use polymorph, such as the succubus?

They lose a lot statwise consistently, unless they change into hill giant form or similar.

 

[Li Shenron]

Yeah, I understand that, Hyp.

But, what about creatures that have no choice but to use polymorph, such as the succubus?

They lose a lot statwise consistently, unless they change into hill giant form or similar.

I would also say that Alter Self is mostly used as a disguise while Polymorph is mostly used combat-oriented. However, in the specific case of a Succubus it would make sense if it had the first instead of the second...

 

[Hypersmurf]

But, what about creatures that have no choice but to use polymorph, such as the succubus?

They're in the same position as a creature with Lightning Bolt as an SLA, whose enemy is surrounded by allies. The tool they have works... but it's not ideally suited to the job they want to do.

They lose a lot statwise consistently, unless they change into hill giant form or similar.

Well, they can't... a hill giant isn't a humanoid, it's a giant.

I would also say that Alter Self is mostly used as a disguise while Polymorph is mostly used combat-oriented. However, in the specific case of a Succubus it would make sense if it had the first instead of the second...

Funny you should say that. The Succubus clearly has Polymorph as a SLA... but the footnote to her Disguise skill states "While using her alter self ability, a succubus gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks."

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Funny you should say that. The Succubus clearly has Polymorph as a SLA... but the footnote to her Disguise skill states "While using her alter self ability, a succubus gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks."

I didn't notice that... I was just thinking of how the Succubus acts usually in the stories, not enjoying fighting nearly as much as deceinving

 

[Jhulae]

They're in the same position as a creature with Lightning Bolt as an SLA, whose enemy is surrounded by allies. The tool they have works... but it's not ideally suited to the job they want to do.

But, a lightning bolt is more powerful, even if less optimal, than a shocking grasp, for instance.

Well, they can't... a hill giant isn't a humanoid, it's a giant.

yeah, yeah.. I know. Humanoid forms only. I'm at work and it's late.

Funny you should say that. The Succubus clearly has Polymorph as a SLA... but the footnote to her Disguise skill states "While using her alter self ability, a succubus gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks."

-Hyp.

But, that brings up the question as to why they would now have a more powerful ability that consistently makes them less powerful? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Darklone]

How I love D&D... polymorph is only worth it if you can fight better?

Wildshaping into a bird or a nice cat used to be pretty useful for my druid now and then.

Why a Succubus should polymorph into a human? Makes walking around the town to seduce some dudes much easier... less zealots with torches who want to burn you.

A succubus looks nice sure, but I'm not so sure how successful her seduction attempts (without spells) might be when she shows her beautiful self with batwings.