The term 'Gain' in Polymorph.

[Jhulae]

How I love D&D... polymorph is only worth it if you can fight better?

Wildshaping into a bird or a nice cat used to be pretty useful for my druid now and then.

Why a Succubus should polymorph into a human? Makes walking around the town to seduce some dudes much easier... less zealots with torches who want to burn you.

A succubus looks nice sure, but I'm not so sure how successful her seduction attempts (without spells) might be when she shows her beautiful self with batwings.

I'm not saying they necessarily need to become better. I'm just saying they shouldn't become worse. Also note, that losing stat value also decreases their skills, not just combat. So, once again, if they'd kept alter self, they'd have been better off than with polymorph. Doesn't make sense.

 

[Flyspeck23]

How I love D&D... polymorph is only worth it if you can fight better?

Are you suggesting there's more to D&D than fighting?

And what's a succubus, anyway? It's not in this box, that's for sure.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But, a lightning bolt is more powerful, even if less optimal, than a shocking grasp, for instance.

That's right. And Polymorph is more powerful than Alter Self... but if you want to change into a halfling and your Str is naturally high, it's less optimal.

But, that brings up the question as to why they would now have a more powerful ability that consistently makes them less powerful?

Why "consistently"? If she polymorphs into a Bugbear or an Orc, her Strength increases.

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

But, in a way then, that makes a 4th level spell less powerful than a 2nd level spell.

In most cases, alter self cannot even let you assume the form, polymorph does, because of type restriction, so it's hardly inferior.

There are really enough forms to choose from. If you willingly select one, which makes you less powerful, that's your fault, not the spell's!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

How I love D&D... polymorph is only worth it if you can fight better?

How did you turn "mostly used" into "only worth"?

 

[JimAde]

Actually, the SRD for Alter Self doesn't say humanoid. It says:

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.

I assume a succubus doesn't have humanoid as its type, so it CAN'T use Alter Self to become a Halfling (or whatever). It has to use Polymorph.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I assume a succubus doesn't have humanoid as its type, so it CAN'T use Alter Self to become a Halfling (or whatever). It has to use Polymorph.

Right - she's an outsider. It's basically what Thanee was saying.

-Hyp.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I'm not saying they necessarily need to become better. I'm just saying they shouldn't become worse. Also note, that losing stat value also decreases their skills, not just combat. So, once again, if they'd kept alter self, they'd have been better off than with polymorph. Doesn't make sense.

Why shouldn't your stats lower? I don't understand your logic.

If you are looking at every possible use of the polymorph spell and how it relates to hand to hand combat then you are confusing this utility spell with a combat spell. It's not like alter self lets you turn into a cat AND keep your Strength and other physical scores. Even Shapechange (a 9th level spell) alters your physical stats to the form you change into, lowering them if the form you choose is physically inferior to your normal form. This makes perfect sense. If it were an illusion that would be one thing, but these spells actually turn you into a cat(or whatever) complete with the physical limitations as well as the benefits you would expect.

 

[jgsugden]

I've been using polymorph as the designer intended (AFAICT) since 3.5 was released. I have played a druid, a sorcerer and a fighter who all benefited from polymorph/wildshape on a regular basis. I have also DM'ed many polymorphing NPCs and monsters.

In my experience, polymorph is *well* worth the cost of a spell. In fact, even using the most restrictive reasonable interpretations for the spell, it is overpowered, not underpowered. Massive strength bonuses, special attacks, reach and natural armor for minutes at a time? Compare that to righteous might and laugh.

If you think it is a weak spell, then try it out as the 3.5 designers intended. Experiment. See if it is more effective than an ice storm spell. See if it has a greater effect on the game than an Otiluke's resilient sphere.

After you've done this, if you still think it is too problematic, then *DON'T USE IT!* I personally find Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound to be less effective than other spells of its level, so I don't tend to use MFH. That is harder for a druid, but if you're finding wildshape to be useless as a druid, you're doing something wrong.

 

[Jhulae]

I've been using polymorph as the designer intended (AFAICT) since 3.5 was released. I have played a druid, a sorcerer and a fighter who all benefited from polymorph/wildshape on a regular basis. I have also DM'ed many polymorphing NPCs and monsters.

In my experience, polymorph is *well* worth the cost of a spell. In fact, even using the most restrictive reasonable interpretations for the spell, it is overpowered, not underpowered. Massive strength bonuses, special attacks, reach and natural armor for minutes at a time? Compare that to righteous might and laugh.

If you think it is a weak spell, then try it out as the 3.5 designers intended. Experiment. See if it is more effective than an ice storm spell. See if it has a greater effect on the game than an Otiluke's resilient sphere.

After you've done this, if you still think it is too problematic, then *DON'T USE IT!* I personally find Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound to be less effective than other spells of its level, so I don't tend to use MFH. That is harder for a druid, but if you're finding wildshape to be useless as a druid, you're doing something wrong.

Except, once again, in the case of a succubus, they can *only* polymorph into humanoid form. No hill giants (thanks again, Hyp ), no bears, no thri-kreen, etc. No "massive strength bonuses, special attacks", etc. I still say that Succubi would have been better off with Alter Self being limited to humanoid forms only.

What's that? Alter self only allows changes between your type? Well polymorph allows any type, but not in the restrictions of succubi, so that arguement is out. If you're going to muck with Polymorph's normal rules, you can also change Alter Self's.

And, when you're looking at the type, there aren't *that* many types of humanoids that are better, statwise, than a succubus, and many of those would stick out just as much as her natural form.

Note, this brings up another point. What are the stat values that a succubus (or anyone using the spell) would gain? Are they the lowest? The average? The character's base, minus modifiers for natural race, but adding modifiers for new form?