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The Thug, A Subclass for Strength Rogues
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<blockquote data-quote="GreenTengu" data-source="post: 7199696" data-attributes="member: 6777454"><p>My point is that a character who MUST invest in multiple stats and have them all be high in order to function at the same level is always going to be worse than a character whose abilities are all triggered off of a single attribute that they can invest all of their character build points into.</p><p></p><p>While a cap of 20 mitigates this to <em>some</em> degree, it does not mitigate it entirely. Moreover, because Dexterity is rooted into so many key aspects of the Rogue class, expecting a character to disinvest from Dexterity in order to invest in a dump stat will result in a much poorer character than one who only has to invest in the single attribute that everything important gets triggered off of.</p><p></p><p>The whole "make it up with feats" is a trash argument that no one would make if they bothered to think about it for two damn minutes.</p><p></p><p>Try to follow me on this one. These attribute increases, feats if we were-- BOTH the character who is trying to play catch-up because they got stuck having to try to invest in multiple attributes and the character whose scores across the board are already better because they got to focus on only one attribute are going to get access to it.</p><p></p><p>Basically what I am saying is that this class is trying to argue that 4=6. And I pointed out that 4 and 6 are not equal and do not come close to being equal. The solution you are arguing that makes it okay is that once every few levels one would have the opportunity to add 1 to each side. Your argument is that 4+1=6+1. However 5 is still not equal to 7.</p><p></p><p>Capping the attribute scores at 20 does help to some degree as being able to give oneself a +2 to the attribute that enhances all of their rolls in fact better than what feats one can buy when one is capped out at an attribute which might only enhance about a quarter of those rolls. But even if we are generous and say we are talking about 4+1=6+0.25, it still does not make them equal. Even if you do it twice so it is 4+1+1=6+0.25+0.25, they still aren't equal and at that point both characters are going to be adding the effective 0.25 with any additional purchases.</p><p></p><p>So while the attribute cap does allow the characters to presumably get closer under the most generous of possible scenarios, they never do become equal. </p><p></p><p>But, really, that whole scenario is more applicable to two characters dependent on a single attribute with maybe one starting higher in that attribute thanks to a racial bonus or something. When talking about a MAD character, you are never going to be adding a "1" to their main attribute because they don't have a main attribute but instead they are forced to raise to attributes. So for the simplified math, you are really going to be adding more like a half. So 4+0.5+0.5=6+0.25+0.25... so they are never going to come even closer to "catching up" regardless of how many times you have them forgo feats enhancing their character in order to try to invest in attributes to play catch up.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Lay out the math yourself compare side-by-side both the combat and noncombat abilities of a standard Rogue who got to leave their Strength at a 10 and a Rogue trying to play this class straight and thus must raise their Dexterity to 14 and then tries to invest in Strength as well as keeping all their other attributes equivalent to the one who only invested in Dexterity.... and demonstrate to me that it is remotely possible to get them to be equivalent or even a trade-off that anyone should ever make at any given level.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreenTengu, post: 7199696, member: 6777454"] My point is that a character who MUST invest in multiple stats and have them all be high in order to function at the same level is always going to be worse than a character whose abilities are all triggered off of a single attribute that they can invest all of their character build points into. While a cap of 20 mitigates this to [I]some[/I] degree, it does not mitigate it entirely. Moreover, because Dexterity is rooted into so many key aspects of the Rogue class, expecting a character to disinvest from Dexterity in order to invest in a dump stat will result in a much poorer character than one who only has to invest in the single attribute that everything important gets triggered off of. The whole "make it up with feats" is a trash argument that no one would make if they bothered to think about it for two damn minutes. Try to follow me on this one. These attribute increases, feats if we were-- BOTH the character who is trying to play catch-up because they got stuck having to try to invest in multiple attributes and the character whose scores across the board are already better because they got to focus on only one attribute are going to get access to it. Basically what I am saying is that this class is trying to argue that 4=6. And I pointed out that 4 and 6 are not equal and do not come close to being equal. The solution you are arguing that makes it okay is that once every few levels one would have the opportunity to add 1 to each side. Your argument is that 4+1=6+1. However 5 is still not equal to 7. Capping the attribute scores at 20 does help to some degree as being able to give oneself a +2 to the attribute that enhances all of their rolls in fact better than what feats one can buy when one is capped out at an attribute which might only enhance about a quarter of those rolls. But even if we are generous and say we are talking about 4+1=6+0.25, it still does not make them equal. Even if you do it twice so it is 4+1+1=6+0.25+0.25, they still aren't equal and at that point both characters are going to be adding the effective 0.25 with any additional purchases. So while the attribute cap does allow the characters to presumably get closer under the most generous of possible scenarios, they never do become equal. But, really, that whole scenario is more applicable to two characters dependent on a single attribute with maybe one starting higher in that attribute thanks to a racial bonus or something. When talking about a MAD character, you are never going to be adding a "1" to their main attribute because they don't have a main attribute but instead they are forced to raise to attributes. So for the simplified math, you are really going to be adding more like a half. So 4+0.5+0.5=6+0.25+0.25... so they are never going to come even closer to "catching up" regardless of how many times you have them forgo feats enhancing their character in order to try to invest in attributes to play catch up. Lay out the math yourself compare side-by-side both the combat and noncombat abilities of a standard Rogue who got to leave their Strength at a 10 and a Rogue trying to play this class straight and thus must raise their Dexterity to 14 and then tries to invest in Strength as well as keeping all their other attributes equivalent to the one who only invested in Dexterity.... and demonstrate to me that it is remotely possible to get them to be equivalent or even a trade-off that anyone should ever make at any given level. [/QUOTE]
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