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The Thug, A Subclass for Strength Rogues
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<blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 7595385" data-attributes="member: 6880599"><p>"It" being rogue features? How do you see it playing? In pretty much every game I have ever seen the rogue features results in ranged combat using dex or stealthy melee fighter using dex. Using strength is inherently abstract to that... so what is it your keeping about how the rogue plays? The only think I see is backstab which is one hit mighty melee damage based on taking advantage of openings. That also aligns more with dex and your goal as I understand it is to use strength. If you just want strength one shot more damage like backstab then I addressed a better way to do that with a fighter. If their is something else with the rogue you want that does not use dex its not clear in your posts since the majority of the class is build around dex.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Encumbrance was an <strong><u>example</u></strong> of a reason why you might want strength not. I am looking for an actual reason you want strength and dex is not working for you. That you have not said. Strength effects armor, armor effects AC, their are about as many strength saves and grappling as their are dex, only wisdom has more. With the right build Strength can be just as much a god state as dex, actually more because it effects encumbrance if you use it. I am not saying you do, but it will make strength better than dex at some tables. "Giving a dex rogue extra bonuses to grappling is OP"... you mean like expertise in athletics? lol.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So when I said striate before, I meant as in "strait to the point" you say you want a strength rogue but the only feature have called out is sneak attack with blunt weapons. The reason this is odd is because rogues and sneak attacks are based on stealth and quickly and dexterously taking advantage of opportunities in combat. Your strength design is a striate forward overpowering damage. Its making a barbarian and calling it a rogue and you don't mention any other reason for this. So <strong><u>it seems like</u></strong> your saying "fun and balanced (aiming for average effectiveness)" as a sideways cover for wanting to munchkin steel backstab for power creep. Since your saying your not, I am asking for clarification of why because trying to apply strength as a primary stat to a class whose features were designed around dexterity, from the saves, to skills proficiencies like stealth, acrobatics, slight of hand, and features like evasion, uncanny dodge and backstab (finesse). Its all deliberate design your build is in direct opposition to the intent of the class and its features. It doesn't make since.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The meta discussion it to understand the "why" of the design. The is 100% a reason why you want a strength rogue but while you have said you want it, you have not clearly said what about it you want or why. I am not trying to say your not being truthful, I am saying your being indirect in stating your final goal but not your reason for it. It maybe you don't even realize what the reason is you want this build. That's not being dishonest. I am asking you to consider that question of "why" beyond "because I want it" as knowing that would be invaluable. Right now it looks like your primary goal it to give back stab to a character that can grapple well. However, you could take expertise in athletics and achieve that without your feature changes. <strong>Your adding clubs for backstab, which is fine but the whole concept of beating a guy with brute force with bat (club) is very thuggish but not at all roguish. So the whole "strength rogue" your face "thug" comes off as stealing backstab and expertise for min/maxing athletics and damage in strength... but said, "I want it to be fun and balanced (aiming for average effectiveness)" which is not what happens when you add Dirty work advantage (athletics grapple or shove), with expertise (athletics which also effects grapple or shove) from rogue, with backstab which you can use on a grapple or shove(prone) target, and to really break this all you have to do is take the tavern brawler feat at level 4, or level 1 as human variant</strong>. … That's what it looks like your doing. So I am asking for clarification, because if that is your goal their is no point in saying that's not a good feature. However, if you doing something else, then really the grappling part should be removed since its easily broken with that one feat. More if you take grappler too because you could really lock down anyone and backstab the crap out of them by yourself.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ClaytonCross, post: 7595385, member: 6880599"] "It" being rogue features? How do you see it playing? In pretty much every game I have ever seen the rogue features results in ranged combat using dex or stealthy melee fighter using dex. Using strength is inherently abstract to that... so what is it your keeping about how the rogue plays? The only think I see is backstab which is one hit mighty melee damage based on taking advantage of openings. That also aligns more with dex and your goal as I understand it is to use strength. If you just want strength one shot more damage like backstab then I addressed a better way to do that with a fighter. If their is something else with the rogue you want that does not use dex its not clear in your posts since the majority of the class is build around dex. Encumbrance was an [B][U]example[/U][/B] of a reason why you might want strength not. I am looking for an actual reason you want strength and dex is not working for you. That you have not said. Strength effects armor, armor effects AC, their are about as many strength saves and grappling as their are dex, only wisdom has more. With the right build Strength can be just as much a god state as dex, actually more because it effects encumbrance if you use it. I am not saying you do, but it will make strength better than dex at some tables. "Giving a dex rogue extra bonuses to grappling is OP"... you mean like expertise in athletics? lol. So when I said striate before, I meant as in "strait to the point" you say you want a strength rogue but the only feature have called out is sneak attack with blunt weapons. The reason this is odd is because rogues and sneak attacks are based on stealth and quickly and dexterously taking advantage of opportunities in combat. Your strength design is a striate forward overpowering damage. Its making a barbarian and calling it a rogue and you don't mention any other reason for this. So [B][U]it seems like[/U][/B] your saying "fun and balanced (aiming for average effectiveness)" as a sideways cover for wanting to munchkin steel backstab for power creep. Since your saying your not, I am asking for clarification of why because trying to apply strength as a primary stat to a class whose features were designed around dexterity, from the saves, to skills proficiencies like stealth, acrobatics, slight of hand, and features like evasion, uncanny dodge and backstab (finesse). Its all deliberate design your build is in direct opposition to the intent of the class and its features. It doesn't make since. The meta discussion it to understand the "why" of the design. The is 100% a reason why you want a strength rogue but while you have said you want it, you have not clearly said what about it you want or why. I am not trying to say your not being truthful, I am saying your being indirect in stating your final goal but not your reason for it. It maybe you don't even realize what the reason is you want this build. That's not being dishonest. I am asking you to consider that question of "why" beyond "because I want it" as knowing that would be invaluable. Right now it looks like your primary goal it to give back stab to a character that can grapple well. However, you could take expertise in athletics and achieve that without your feature changes. [B]Your adding clubs for backstab, which is fine but the whole concept of beating a guy with brute force with bat (club) is very thuggish but not at all roguish. So the whole "strength rogue" your face "thug" comes off as stealing backstab and expertise for min/maxing athletics and damage in strength... but said, "I want it to be fun and balanced (aiming for average effectiveness)" which is not what happens when you add Dirty work advantage (athletics grapple or shove), with expertise (athletics which also effects grapple or shove) from rogue, with backstab which you can use on a grapple or shove(prone) target, and to really break this all you have to do is take the tavern brawler feat at level 4, or level 1 as human variant[/B]. … That's what it looks like your doing. So I am asking for clarification, because if that is your goal their is no point in saying that's not a good feature. However, if you doing something else, then really the grappling part should be removed since its easily broken with that one feat. More if you take grappler too because you could really lock down anyone and backstab the crap out of them by yourself. [/QUOTE]
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