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The Thug, A Subclass for Strength Rogues
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<blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 7595809" data-attributes="member: 6880599"><p>So what of that can't be achieve by role playing fighter or barbarian as thug? What does the Rogue class offer as Strength based design like this that makes it the choice for this subclass?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, that's why I keep referring to the rogue class as a group of features. What detracts from this if the athletic criminal is based on the barbarian or fighter features? Why rogue? Does this not also step on the toes of those classes since they exist to fill that void? Being a criminal is not class specific and could be applied to any class.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I did not claim that or assign those motives. The OP said his goals were to avoid those and there are design aspects that could be used that way. So I wanted to point those out and that they are perhaps in contradiction to the OPs statements. That does not make it an OP motivation. The post is here for discussion, so if the OP over looked a potential for abuse it would be expected that the exploit be pointed out in response. They said they are not maximizing and I have no reason to believe other wise but that doesn't mean such flaws can't happen by accident? Isn't that why we play test? Isn't that why additional point of view are useful to design development?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So they are taking a dex tax due to insufficient armor? I mean I don't generally see strength Barbarians or Fighters with high dex too. What is it that provokes this design as a Rogue with a dex tax instead of Fighter or Barbarian without one? Even if we disregard the skills not needing dex, is their anything that supports strength like Barbarians rage? What makes this good as a rogue build. Is it just "because" and if so does that mean its stuck on this idea of the rogue feature package name? </p><p></p><p>1. There is nothing in rules that prevents a fighter or Barbarian from being a strength based criminal thug with these features.What makes them better on even as good as a rogue? </p><p></p><p>2. If they are not as better on a rogue why is it important mechanically or in role play to tie this subclass to rogue features?</p><p></p><p>To me if you can't answer those two questions your subclass doesn't have enough of an identity to be a rogue sub-class because you can do it already. If your giving identity and making it unique and special to the rogue class then it needs to know it an own it but be careful not to abuse it. What I see is this looks like a grapple master class but doesn't account for there being 2 feets for grappling any class including rogues, fighters, and barbarians could take. If you apply those feats to this subclass as rogue with one hit damage (backstab) and expertise... it takes something any class can do then breaks it instead of becoming special. A little clarity on the intent could temper the design into something more unique and less broken. The fear ability for example, is whole unique and suites a thug. It's not a rogue specific ability but it seems like a thought in the right direction. It seems like the OP has a good intent but feel like "strength rogue thug" has left it too generic to make unique so its relying heavily on a mechanic that anyone can use and that a barbarian already does very well. So what makes a strength rogue thug different and uniquge from a strength barbarian thug?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ClaytonCross, post: 7595809, member: 6880599"] So what of that can't be achieve by role playing fighter or barbarian as thug? What does the Rogue class offer as Strength based design like this that makes it the choice for this subclass? Again, that's why I keep referring to the rogue class as a group of features. What detracts from this if the athletic criminal is based on the barbarian or fighter features? Why rogue? Does this not also step on the toes of those classes since they exist to fill that void? Being a criminal is not class specific and could be applied to any class. I did not claim that or assign those motives. The OP said his goals were to avoid those and there are design aspects that could be used that way. So I wanted to point those out and that they are perhaps in contradiction to the OPs statements. That does not make it an OP motivation. The post is here for discussion, so if the OP over looked a potential for abuse it would be expected that the exploit be pointed out in response. They said they are not maximizing and I have no reason to believe other wise but that doesn't mean such flaws can't happen by accident? Isn't that why we play test? Isn't that why additional point of view are useful to design development? So they are taking a dex tax due to insufficient armor? I mean I don't generally see strength Barbarians or Fighters with high dex too. What is it that provokes this design as a Rogue with a dex tax instead of Fighter or Barbarian without one? Even if we disregard the skills not needing dex, is their anything that supports strength like Barbarians rage? What makes this good as a rogue build. Is it just "because" and if so does that mean its stuck on this idea of the rogue feature package name? 1. There is nothing in rules that prevents a fighter or Barbarian from being a strength based criminal thug with these features.What makes them better on even as good as a rogue? 2. If they are not as better on a rogue why is it important mechanically or in role play to tie this subclass to rogue features? To me if you can't answer those two questions your subclass doesn't have enough of an identity to be a rogue sub-class because you can do it already. If your giving identity and making it unique and special to the rogue class then it needs to know it an own it but be careful not to abuse it. What I see is this looks like a grapple master class but doesn't account for there being 2 feets for grappling any class including rogues, fighters, and barbarians could take. If you apply those feats to this subclass as rogue with one hit damage (backstab) and expertise... it takes something any class can do then breaks it instead of becoming special. A little clarity on the intent could temper the design into something more unique and less broken. The fear ability for example, is whole unique and suites a thug. It's not a rogue specific ability but it seems like a thought in the right direction. It seems like the OP has a good intent but feel like "strength rogue thug" has left it too generic to make unique so its relying heavily on a mechanic that anyone can use and that a barbarian already does very well. So what makes a strength rogue thug different and uniquge from a strength barbarian thug? [/QUOTE]
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