Grazzt
Demon Lord
This.
I didn't see the OP's post as anything other than a critique of the editing goofs in the 4e books (and there are quite a few actually; some bad, some not as noticeable as others. Overall...very poor editing job IMO).
The tragedy of 4th edition.
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This.
I didn't see the OP's post as anything other than a critique of the editing goofs in the 4e books (and there are quite a few actually; some bad, some not as noticeable as others. Overall...very poor editing job IMO).
GoodKingJayIII
First Post
Much as I like 4th edition, if they pull another 3.5 on us I'd probably sit that one out. 3.5 played havoc with my rules knowledge because of all the niggling changes. I'd probably continue to pick up new products under a "4.5" label, but new core books with errata? No thanks.
Andor said:
To be fair, this is not just the beta MMO "sell it and fix it later" model we're talking about; this is a problem that is rampant in the RPG industry. Hell, it's a problem for publishing in general. Talk to anyone who edits massive technical documents of any kind. Those things are usually written and reviewed by at least half-a-dozen different people. Every time someone reviews a document for errors, there is a chance that person will make an error.
All this aside, I agree with your points. 4th Edition needed another round or two of edits. Had they added another 3 months for editing, they probably could've managed this and organized a GenCon release. But this relates to another problem with the publishing business paradigm: no one gets paid until after the product is released. Wizards/Hasbro spent 3-4 years developing this product, and are under a lot more pressure than most other RPG companies... you can bet they wanted that thing out the door and on shelves, selling copies and making money. As I said though, this is an industry-wide problem, and not necessarily Wizards' fault.
The errors make me gnash my editorial teeth, but I've thought about this before and it's brought up two questions I ask myself:
1) Would I "notice" as many of these errors if not for the internet forums I visit?
2) How much do these errors impact my game?
The answer to 1 is: probably not
The answer to 2: it depends. If I'm DMing I can make the decisions I think are best for my game, so questionable rules don't concern me too much. If I'm playing, I've got to rely on the DM for that decision. I may not necessarily agree with a rules interpretation, but I'll respect.
So in the end, I enjoy the game enough to not sweat some of the questionable stuff. If the game stops being fun, only then do I really consider the real quality of the product.
Obryn
Hero
No, it's a pretty inflammatory thread title. Denying that is pretty disingenuous.
How about "4e is poorly edited" or something along those lines? That way - if the meat of what the OP wants to talk about is poor editing, the OP doesn't need to be distracted by redcard and the like "turning this into an edition war."
-O
Aaaaanyway. I'm a pretty big f4nboy, and am very much enjoying the new edition...
... but I, too, deplore the quality of the physical product. I think a lot of the OP's points (rogue powers?) are nits which I frankly don't care about, but there's some truth there, and the books could have been different.
I still say some sort of small preprinted beta would have been great -- since digital copies leaked to the net anyway, I'm pretty sure it would have been nothing but net. Set up a forum to comment on, let people go nuts, and cull the responses into the "real" print run. Heck, they could even sell this initial run (on cheaper printings, or maybe just pdfs with credit card #s embedded).
... but I, too, deplore the quality of the physical product. I think a lot of the OP's points (rogue powers?) are nits which I frankly don't care about, but there's some truth there, and the books could have been different.
I still say some sort of small preprinted beta would have been great -- since digital copies leaked to the net anyway, I'm pretty sure it would have been nothing but net. Set up a forum to comment on, let people go nuts, and cull the responses into the "real" print run. Heck, they could even sell this initial run (on cheaper printings, or maybe just pdfs with credit card #s embedded).
You know what the real tragedy for D&D is?
It's becoming that the only thing really, truly wrong with 3.5 or 4.0 or whatever edition of D&D you play is...
...the people who play it.
I find it sad that it's true
Nifft
Penguin Herder
I agree, mostly. A "dryer", more technical title would be less provocative.
Cheers, -- N
delericho
Legend
Hardly. His point was that it was tragic that while 4e is a very good game, it could have been a truly great game, but falls short of that.
I agree with the OP on all counts.
A "tragedy" would be more in line with a game so broken nobody would've wanted it.
Right now, it's just 2 or 3 powers and some editing errors...
Hardly the tragedy the threads suggests.
Maybe the OP works at the Inquirer or Police Section in the Newspaper!
Andor
First Post
*sigh* I didn't say 4th is tragically bad. "The tragedy of X" is a set phrase.
This isn't an edition war, I make no references to other editions or judgements about playstyle choices, unlike those who see the need to attack 3e for some reason in this thread.
This is the flagship product of a new line of an RPG intended to produce income for years to come. It is being released by the largest, most powerful, and best funded RPG publisher in the world. That the people in charge wanted the product out the door more than they wanted it to be a quality product it not promising.
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