The Trouble With Union

[Kem]

I think the idea that everyone in Union is high-level is a stupid idea.

That's why in my campaigns the average Union Sentinel is a 1st-level Warrior and the average shopkeeper is a 1st-level expert because it doesn't make any sense that they'd be higher level. Sure there's a bunch of epic level characters, but you'll most likely hit a 1st level character if you swing a dead-cat.

If they wanted a truly epic city where only high level characters existed, they'd have to think a lot more into how magic can be implemented into such a city. And there should be all sorts of magical creations and constructs like iron golems running around the streets to serve the interests of such high-level characters.

I agree, moreso with the second paragraph then the first. 1st level characters will be there, but the union sentials would be a single guy(Epic Level) and a bunch of contructs, and other magical things that he works with. Your average shop might have an epic level guy, or it might be a golem, or maybe some being conjured or created by someone.

They should have had say a page or two of epic spells(don't even need to print them in the book), then abuse the heck out of them for the city. Think of Eberron but only one city and Epic spells to make everyday accessories instead of low level magic.

 

[Lazybones]

I haven't done a lot of epic-level play, but if I were to use Union I'd set it up so that the city contains a big, stationary artifact in its center. The artifact essentially "powers up" everyone who lives there to epic level, but only as long as they remain there. You could have a variety of means to have ordinary people drawn there, maybe mages gating in common people from various multiverses to serve them, or have people brought in by the mercanes to staff the city, or maybe even have the artifact (semisentient) deliberately bringing people there. So you'd get a bunch of commoners, artisans, guards, etc. who are insanely tough by external standards, but who still have a commoner mentality.

I think that setup would make for some interesting options for a campaign. You could even kick off a campaign by having a low-level relative/friend of the PCs sucked into Union, and then the player characters have to track him/her down. Or maybe use an old villain or a minor NPC hostile to the player characters, and give them the "epic treatment".

 

[I'm A Banana]

A big problem people have with Union is that Sigil would have been a better replacement.

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but *I've* never met anyone who thinks this way.

Sigil would *blow* done as an Epic Level a-thon, IMO. Part of the coolness of Sigil has always been as a bastion for low-level peons on the planes. There's some epic-level stuff, but it's a little cherry on top, not the entire shtick.

I'd like Sigil to be done. I would HATE for it to be re-imagined as an epic-level retirement center. Ew. Ew times one million.

 

[Kem]

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but *I've* never met anyone who thinks this way.

Sigil would *blow* done as an Epic Level a-thon, IMO. Part of the coolness of Sigil has always been as a bastion for low-level peons on the planes. There's some epic-level stuff, but it's a little cherry on top, not the entire shtick.

I'd like Sigil to be done. I would HATE for it to be re-imagined as an epic-level retirement center. Ew. Ew times one million.

Erm, Sigil as is.

 

[Nifft]

Agree that Sigil as-is would be able to challenge Epic PCs as well as accommodate low-level PCs. Because if you're famous in Sigil, trouble may come looking for you.

Cheers, -- N

 

[I'm A Banana]

Erm, Sigil as is.

Sigil as-is would BLOW as an example of an epic city a la the ELH, too. It wouldn't be an epic showcase like Union is. It would have a few powerful members, but the purpose of Union was, in part, to give an entire epic-level setting. Sigil doesn't function very well as that, because of all the low-level sub-epic critters running around and the ultimate tool of DM fiat in the Lady of Pain.

Epic levels belong in Sigil, but the City of Doors isn't the first thing I think of when I think of EPIC LEVEL, and it wouldn't be the best epic level setting, either.

 

[Nifft]

Sigil as-is would BLOW as an example of an epic city a la the ELH, too. It wouldn't be an epic showcase like Union is. It would have a few powerful members, but the purpose of Union was, in part, to give an entire epic-level setting. Sigil doesn't function very well as that, because of all the low-level sub-epic critters running around and the ultimate tool of DM fiat in the Lady of Pain.

Epic levels belong in Sigil, but the City of Doors isn't the first thing I think of when I think of EPIC LEVEL, and it wouldn't be the best epic level setting, either.

See, IMHO the whole problem with Union is that everyone is Epic. It's not a place where Epic is integrated into a setting. It's a reboot of the game.

"What ho, good sir! You can't litter here, because EPIC city guards will throw you in EPIC local jail!"

Sigil as-is could make more sense, IMHO. It's got a reason you can't just walk in and take over (the Lady); it's got a reason you can't set up shop and become a god (the Lady again); it's got a good reason you might need to interact with locals (to find the right Portal to get where you want); it's got numerous organizations which have heads with whom you can interact.

Basically, I'd rather see a city with Epic integration, rathar than a city with Epic as its gimmick. And I like Sigil more than any other famous D&D city that I can think of off the top of my head.

Ooo, no wait, actually I'd like to see the City of Brass done as an Epic-integrated city. Someone please get working on that right now!

Thanks, -- N

 

[I'm A Banana]

See, IMHO the whole problem with Union is that everyone is Epic. It's not a place where Epic is integrated into a setting. It's a reboot of the game.

I agree, but my observation is that Union as presented in the ELH was probably part of the mission statement of the ELH from a very early period, as an "epic setting." If the PC's were going to go epic, there needed to be epic things around them to interact with and challenge them.

By itself, this is very solid reasoning. If PC's can reach 21st level, but everything else in the world peters out at 20th, the PC's run out of rivals and benefactors and the like very quick, and if your stated goal is to keep 21st + like 1st-20th as much as possible, you need a setting that can match the power.

If the ELH team would have looked at the requirement for an epic setting, and would have chosen Sigil, I think it would be a very very poor choice, because though Sigil certainly has room for some epic-level shenanigans, it is a horrible example of an "epic setting" for a host of reasons.

Union *does* accomplish the goal of matching the escalating power of PC's with a setting that can accommodate that. I think that was the goal in designing Union in the first place, and I think it's a worthy goal for the ELH. I don't think Sigil would have accomplished that. At all.

I also think you can have something that accomplishes that goal without the absurdity of 50th level pig farmers, too, though. And on that note, Union falls flat on it's face quite elegantly.

However, in response the accusation that Sigil fans only wanted Sigil in the ELH and would have hated anything else, no matter how high-quality, just because it wasn't Sigil...well, I'm calling that out as nonsense from where I'm sitting. Sigil and the ELH wouldn't have gone together well at all (and this from a guy who would LOVE to see an official 3e detailed treatment of Sigil), so if they HAD used Sigil, I would have been unhappy, probably more unhappy than I am that they used Union. This reflects the opinion of every PS fan that I've talked to about the issue, too. Union was a better choice than Sigil. Union was still had glaring, horrible flaws, however. And none of those flaws are "it's not Sigil."

 

[IamTheTest]

How to make a better City of Union?

First, make it stranger. It's a planar city of epic magic. It shouldn't be a normal city. Have the city be sentient or something. No incarnation of that sentience (it would be too Lady of Pain-esque), just treat the whole thing as a creature.

Second, when you have twelve thousand epic characters, you have zero epic character. If they want to be epic, they have to be rare. So, decrease population a lot, to the point where a DM could easily know all of the NPCs of the city (not counting possible lackeys and retainers).

Who's gonna sweep the trash out of the street? No one! The city cleans itself. Who's gonna quard the entries? No one! The city doesn't need sentinels. And so on. Who builds the mansions and palaces? No one! If the city deems you worth, it creates a home for you. If it wants you to leave, your building disappears.

Oh yeah, and no merchant of any kind. Everyone's already so rich and powerful they don't need anything. If you want to trade for something you can't do yourself, trade directly with the one guy in the whole universe you can -- it's not going to be something a fishmonger, even a 15th-level one, could sell you anyway or you wouldn't need to go to Union to find it.

I like this take. For whatever reason, when I think of an epic city I think of Sci-Fi Channel's Eureka. A small city where everybody is the best at what they do. Very cool if there is a reason for its existance.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Back to the dungeon. -That was the design premise of 3rd edition. They where so happy with it they decided to drive it through Deities and Epic even though anyone could see it was a bad idea. Union was just designed to be the Homlet of epic Temple of Elemental Evil. I hated it, but I never agreed with back to the dungeon in the first place.