D&D General The Tyranny of Rarity

[DND_Reborn]

Ok, I can see your point, but to me the gaps, etc. aren't as severe as you see them. Also, the whole point of the changes like stuff in Tasha's or whatever was because people didn't seem to want these tropes...

For me:

Gaps: No high wisdom races. No Roguish race

If no "high wisdom" you mean no "+2", then ok. But if you use the variant Human, which IME nearly every group does (or at least allows) then you get a +2 Wisdom by putting a +1 in WIS and selecting a feat with +1 WIS--then Bam! +2 WIS.

No roguish race? Anything with a DEX or INT ASI makes for a better rogue.

Holes: No races with special powers. No dragon race, No Big Guy Race, No Artic/Desert/Jungle race,

I guess your definition of special powers is greater than mine certainly!

Darkvision is rampant in 5E!
Resistance to poison / fire
Resistance to charm magics
Immune to sleep magics
Cantrips or greater spells (e.g. Drow)
Phenomenal Luck
Advantage against some magic
Ability to not die at 0 hp (e.g. Half-Orc)

If you allow the latitude to include the "extra" races (Dragonborn and Tiefling) you get even more, including your "dragon race".

If not, the big guy race could be Half-Orc depending on your definition of "big".

Climates are just locations IMO.

Redundancies: 2 high Dex races, 2 high Con race, 3 Fey races, 2 Norse linked races, Almost all pretty races, Almost all humanlike races, 3 version of Human.

As far as ASIs, you can't avoid some overlap.
I don't consider any of the races "fey" myself, personally, but they might be in the "design" of 5E?
All pretty races? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so I am not sure what you would want for a non-pretty race.
Almost all humanlike? By that you mean a head, face, two arms, and two legs?
3 versions of Human? Only if you play them that way--two are only half human after all.

Specialness: Human, Short human. Skinny human. Stout human. Short human 2. Kinda skinny human. Kinda big human.

I don't think specialness has much to do with human-like given my own view on it.

Now, is there room for improvement? ABSOLUTELY! Would I give it a C+, nah, but probably only a B due to the execution of design by WotC, not because I think 9 (or even 7) races is too limited of a selection.

Anyway, I guess you just want more variety to make a special race than I need. So, naturally, you probably would look to more "exotic" races that 5E offers. I simply don't see the need, nor have the desire.

 

[Lanefan]

I think it's that some people think that some DMs think the fun of the players don't matter. There is some dismissal of the concept of figuring out why players want to to play certain types of PCs and apathy to adding or fostering popular ideas amongst players in the D&D Community.

That one's simple: if I'm the DM and I happen to think a "popular" idea* among the greater community is terrible then the last thing I'm going to do is foster that idea's continuance within my own game.

* - an example for me would be Tieflings and Dragonborn as PC-playable species.

 

[Lanefan]

It's pretty easy to either reskin or revisualize the kindred species to make them fit some of these roles:

It works but the lineup is not great. We are just used to it. Science fiction and urban fantasy due to it not being tied to the same tropes offers better arrays.

Gaps: No high wisdom races. No Roguish race

Wisdom species: trivially easy to have Dwarves fill this one.
Rogueish species: Hobbits (Halflings), as they have always been.

Holes: No races with special powers. No dragon race, No Big Guy Race, No Artic/Desert/Jungle race,

No species with special powers: good, and game balance thanks you very much. Night-sight is bad enough.
No dragon species: good. Dragons are powerful monsters, and exist in game terms to act either as friend or (more commonly) foe.
No big-guy species: what are Part-Orcs? Though if you're thinking 9'-tall big you'll run aground on game balance again.
No arctic-desert-jungle species: are whole new species really needed to fill these gaps or can different cultures within existing species do just as well?

 

[Oofta]

It works but the lineup is not great. We are just used to it. Science fiction and urban fantasy due to it not being tied to the same tropes offers better arrays.

Gaps: No high wisdom races.

Hill dwarves, wood elves, half elves don't count because they're "only" a +1?

No Roguish race

Elves and halflings might want to have a word.

Holes: No races with special powers. No dragon race, No Big Guy Race,

I see that as a positive, not a negative.

No Artic/Desert/Jungle race,

Every race in the PHB can come from any of those places.

Redundancies: 2 high Dex races, 2 high Con race, 3 Fey races, 2 Norse linked races, Almost all pretty races, Almost all humanlike races, 3 version of Human.
Specalness: Human, Short human. Skinny human. Stout human. Short human 2. Kinda skinny human. Kinda big human.

True, there's a lack of anthropomorphic animal humanoids. Again, I see that as a plus not a minus.

And that's all before you get to culture. If you judged the line up with no nostalgia, it gets a C+ at best.

I agree that the base is a fantasy lineup. Because it's a fantasy game. Fortunately there are rules in the DMG for making your own race and there are supplements if it turns your crank. I'm okay with my campaign world being what I would consider a serious fantasy world.

 

[Minigiant]

No roguish race? Anything with a DEX or INT ASI makes for a better rogue.

Rogueish species: Hobbits (Halflings), as they have always been.

Rogueis more than Dex
Where is Sneak attack? Cunning Action. Dagger Specialization? Thieves Tools?

Forgot No Cleric Race.

If no "high wisdom" you mean no "+2", then ok. But if you use the variant Human, which IME nearly every group does (or at least allows) then you get a +2 Wisdom by putting a +1 in WIS and selecting a feat with +1 WIS--then Bam! +2 WIS.

Wisdom species: trivially easy to have Dwarves fill this one.

Not in the base game. Hence the hole.

I guess your definition of special powers is greater than mine certainly!

Darkvision is rampant in 5E!
Resistance to poison / fire
Resistance to charm magics
Immune to sleep magics
Cantrips or greater spells (e.g. Drow)
Phenomenal Luck
Advantage against some magic
Ability to not die at 0 hp (e.g. Half-Orc)

Okay ifyou like some of the tamest fantasy special abilites in the media.

No horns. No Claws. Fire Breath. Tendrils. X ray vision. Echolocation. Water breathing.

If not, the big guy race could be Half-Orc depending on your definition of "big".

No big-guy species: what are Part-Orcs? Though if you're thinking 9'-tall big you'll run aground on game balance again.

Not actually big. Not bonuses due to high or super strength. no culture of bigness.

Now, is there room for improvement? ABSOLUTELY! Would I give it a C+, nah, but probably only a B due to the execution of design by WotC, not because I think 9 (or even 7) races is too limited of a selection.

Anyway, I guess you just want more variety to make a special race than I need. So, naturally, you probably would look to more "exotic" races that 5E offers. I simply don't see the need, nor have the desire.

I'm just saying that the array is built on nostalgia and not market targeted game design. Many of the races whole be cut.

That's why most fantasy video games and board games cut many of these races to add more fantastical ones like Draneri, Qunori, Minotaurs, Goblins, Lizardmen, Vampires, etc

 

[DND_Reborn]

Rogueis more than Dex

Which is why I included INT...

Where is Sneak attack? Cunning Action. Dagger Specialization? Thieves Tools?

Fine... Halflings. Naturally Stealthy? Not enough for you? There is also Mast of the Wild.

Otherwise, most of the things you mention belong to the class, not races...

Not in the base game. Hence the hole.

Variant human with WIS-based feat IS in the base game.

Okay ifyou like some of the tamest fantasy special abilites in the media.

Yep, I do.

No horns. No Claws. Fire Breath. Tendrils. X ray vision. Echolocation. Water breathing.

So, you want monsters and superheroes as races???

Not actually big. Not bonuses due to high or super strength. no culture of bigness.

Ok, so Mountain Dwarves and Half-Orcs with +2 STR isn't enough, either? Again with the superhero stuff (bold)?

Culture is not race. So, not sure what you mean by "culture of bigness."

I'm just saying that the array is built on nostalgia and not market targeted game design. Many of the races whole be cut.

Doubtful because people who are targeted would be fans of a lot of the classic races in fiction, as well as more recent media.

That's why most fantasy video games and board games cut many of these races to add more fantastical ones like Draneri, Qunori, Minotaurs, Goblins, Lizardmen, Vampires, etc

I suppose, I don't play fantasy video games or board games hardly at all, and nothing I do has anything you mentioned.

Anyway, we disagree. No biggie.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But an entire preconceived world is easier to accept?

Characters are a lot easier to conceive than settings, generally speaking.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Something I accept every time I pick up a book to read, movie to watch, or TV series to binge.

@Cadence

Apologies, my connection dropped and this post went up before I’d typed my response.

I don’t think a book, movie, or tv show is all that useful of a comparison since there’s no player analogue. Those works are created entirely ahead of time rather than (at least partially) during play like an RPG.

And beside, my point is that if a GM can expect for the entire play world to be detailed ahead of play, the idea that a player may have a character concept in mind prior to play shouldn’t be all that surprising.

 

[Cadence]

First quote: For my part, the thing "wrong" with "everyone's just human" is that it's boring. It doesn't feel like fantasy to me. I like playing things like dragonborn, aasimar, warforged, etc. because they feel fantastical--and because they challenge me to "think beyond myself" as it were, beyond what humans typically do.
speech should have some life experiences that humans simply don't).

---

I also have no problem making compromises...about class, or background, or various other things. I'd just really, really rather not change race if I have a particular one I'd like to explore. Usually that's dragonborn, because I unabashedly love them, but sometimes it's other things: warforged, half-elf, minotaur, orc, aasimar, horned lion-men (charr from Guild Wars or hrothgar/ronso from Final Fantasy), it varies. It's not just "waaah I wanna be K3WL L33T UB3R H4XX0R!!!1!!1!1@12!one!" I legit enjoy both the challenge of playing something not-quite-human and of keeping in mind all the little ways that their experience differs, both required by physiology and contingent due to the history of this particular world.


No. For my part, there's a loose hierarchy from vital to optional, as somewhat implied in my above response to Oofta. Alignment is at the top (flexibility is extremely unlikely), followed by race and deity (flexibility is possible but I'd prefer not to), followed by class (I have preferences but usually enough of them to adjust to any group), followed by subclass (this is often easily re-flavored...and also usually not much of a problem anyway). Alignment, race, and deity are the "closest" choices, the ones that most deeply affect the fundamental experience of playing a different person.

I wonder if the degree of importance of non-humans is related to the literature/video games/movies each person likes. For the humans only among those I like are the Black Company, Dread Empire, Black Cauldron, Conan, and King Arthur are pretty much all human and Fafhrd&Mouser and Dying Earth seem pretty close. Tolkien is obviously demi-human focussed and Percy Jackson and the related series add a few more among the humans and demi-gods. The Garrett Chronicles on the other hand are very not mostly human. So a human world feels just fine as fantasy to me. One with dragon born still feels strange to me though.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I wonder if the degree of importance of non-humans is related to the literature/video games/movies each person likes. For the humans only among those I like are the Black Company, Dread Empire, Black Cauldron, Conan, and King Arthur are pretty much all human and Fafhrd&Mouser and Dying Earth seem pretty close. Tolkien is obviously demi-human focussed and Percy Jackson and the related series add a few more among the humans and demi-gods. The Garrett Chronicles on the other hand are very not mostly human. So a human world feels just fine as fantasy to me. One with dragon born still feels strange to me though.

strange is good thoúght closer to wonder and all.