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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
The Usage of the Non-Sequitur "4e is a Tactical Skirmish Game"
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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 5994551" data-attributes="member: 20564"><p><strong>Understand where they are coming from</strong></p><p></p><p>I'm a fan of 4e (and other editions, and other RPGs), and actively play in several 4e games. I'm saying that to give a feel that I'm not kicking 4e.</p><p></p><p>As a percentage of 4e rules, "tactical skirmish" is by far the most represented, either directly with combat rules, or indirectly through character creations & advancement rules that are heavily biased towards combat.</p><p></p><p>There are rules for skill challenges, but they don't take up much room compared to combat. (And did not seem nearly as robustly tested when the game came out, often leading them to be delegated to a lesser station for a while.) So what conflict there is that isn't combat is minimized. There's alignments, and skills, and RP advice to flesh out. But none of those comes close to the amount of pages give to combat and encounters.</p><p></p><p>Now, if you go back to early editions of D&D, you could start to say the same things. But spell lists (a very large chunk of rules) were heavily given to things that were useful in non-combat situations. The 4e MM did a wonderful job of "we're not bogging down the monsters with every little power - if they need something for plot reasons, give it to them". But the flip side is that if you look at individual monsters, nothing in the mechanics section has to do with anything except combat. Earlier editions had sections like magical properties of gems or other things to evoke wonder and thought.</p><p></p><p>I know DMs that forget that monsters have surges (one per tier) because it's not listed - there's a heavy trend towards "everything I need is in one place, and if it's not there, it's not needed." Power cards lead to that as well for the players. So the layout of the material also helps to reinforce this stereotype. (One kudo for D&D Next is that "Improvise" is listed on the same page as other combat options.)</p><p></p><p>That covers a reading of the rules without play - nothing takes up as many pages as combat, a/k/a "tactical skirmish". Now turn towards the community. The primary one-shot to do at FLGS? D&D Encounters or Lair Assault. Neither is a poster child to dispel this.</p><p></p><p>Do I think 4e is just tactical skirmish? Heck no. If it was, I wouldn't be playing in multiple long-running campaigns. But it's easy to see from either reading of the rules or from sponsored games at FLGS that this can easily be seen as the case. No one can say the game isn't tactical skirmish, you just need to add in all the rest it is as well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blue, post: 5994551, member: 20564"] [b]Understand where they are coming from[/b] I'm a fan of 4e (and other editions, and other RPGs), and actively play in several 4e games. I'm saying that to give a feel that I'm not kicking 4e. As a percentage of 4e rules, "tactical skirmish" is by far the most represented, either directly with combat rules, or indirectly through character creations & advancement rules that are heavily biased towards combat. There are rules for skill challenges, but they don't take up much room compared to combat. (And did not seem nearly as robustly tested when the game came out, often leading them to be delegated to a lesser station for a while.) So what conflict there is that isn't combat is minimized. There's alignments, and skills, and RP advice to flesh out. But none of those comes close to the amount of pages give to combat and encounters. Now, if you go back to early editions of D&D, you could start to say the same things. But spell lists (a very large chunk of rules) were heavily given to things that were useful in non-combat situations. The 4e MM did a wonderful job of "we're not bogging down the monsters with every little power - if they need something for plot reasons, give it to them". But the flip side is that if you look at individual monsters, nothing in the mechanics section has to do with anything except combat. Earlier editions had sections like magical properties of gems or other things to evoke wonder and thought. I know DMs that forget that monsters have surges (one per tier) because it's not listed - there's a heavy trend towards "everything I need is in one place, and if it's not there, it's not needed." Power cards lead to that as well for the players. So the layout of the material also helps to reinforce this stereotype. (One kudo for D&D Next is that "Improvise" is listed on the same page as other combat options.) That covers a reading of the rules without play - nothing takes up as many pages as combat, a/k/a "tactical skirmish". Now turn towards the community. The primary one-shot to do at FLGS? D&D Encounters or Lair Assault. Neither is a poster child to dispel this. Do I think 4e is just tactical skirmish? Heck no. If it was, I wouldn't be playing in multiple long-running campaigns. But it's easy to see from either reading of the rules or from sponsored games at FLGS that this can easily be seen as the case. No one can say the game isn't tactical skirmish, you just need to add in all the rest it is as well. [/QUOTE]
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The Usage of the Non-Sequitur "4e is a Tactical Skirmish Game"
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