IanB
First Post
The regen only functions while bloodied, so they'd still need to spend surges for the top half of their hp.
The vampire starts with just 2 healing surges
- Thread starter Neverfate
- Start date
The regen only functions while bloodied, so they'd still need to spend surges for the top half of their hp.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Again, it is no bag of rats issue per RAW. Depends how you read it. The whole bag of rats thing is way open for different interpretations.
A goblin was a threat. If you are willing to slaughter a helpless goblin after a battle, so be it... it most certainly won´t make your vampire look non evil however...
And even without using a helpless target as fodder, you usually will have a spare surge left after a battle. Any other character, that is down to 1 hp or so will have a hard time surviving the rest of the day... so it seems quite reasonable for the vampire to have only 2 surges.
Also a surge spent by your ally generally heals you to full if a battle is going wrong, which is worth more than using healing word enhanced surge for the ally.
You are completely ignoring those facts if you say a vampire does not have enough surges on a regular day*.
* 4 encounters means 6 surges at level 1, 10 at level 3. You never have to spend more than 2 surges after a battle since you heal up to bloodied for free.
WalterKovacs
First Post
Generally speaking, out of combat healing is no problem for the vampire ... odds are the group would probably let you save your surges for fights and let you take one off whoever has the most surges left to get you to full.
The question is in (a) situations where you don't have a chance to gain surges like against traps or skill challenges and (b) healing DURING an encounter, since you can't regen while below 0hp, you can't steal your allies surges, etc.
There are going to be some situations where you need 2 or more surges in a fight ... things can go wrong. And, you should be spending the surge on your one encounter power for the extra damage, so at least one "bonus" surge per encounter is probably going to get used up. You may be able to go without durable, but you could very well end up unconcious and out of surges during a tough fight. And of course, in any other encounter you are now needing to hit and get your surge quickly, before you need to spend it.
Basically, just the 1 or 2 extra surges makes a huge difference ... which is presumably why the class got fixed surges instead of getting a bonus number based on con modifier, since the various feats (and items) are available in a pinch.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Of course somethng can go wrong, but it s no difference for different classes... the skill challenge surge losses are problematic, and i´d like to know, why an ally can´t just spend a surge to give you one or 2 of them. Healing your bloodied value and haling to full at an extended rest is narly equivalent fo the vampire.
Actually, they don't. During a short rest a willing ally can spend a surge to have the vampire regain their bloodied value in hp.
They might have some difficulty in combat, but they're just about the most efficient healers there are, between fights.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
I must wthdraw a statement i made earlier. I realy was thnking the vampire got a second use of his HS draining attack at level 3. He instead gets his HS using attack there... so at level 3 it gets actually worse* until it gets better at level 7.
*worse in the sense of: more tempting to burn the extra surge and end the battle with his standard amount of surges.
*worse in the sense of: more tempting to burn the extra surge and end the battle with his standard amount of surges.
I realize anecdotes don't really prove anything, but I ran my own little exercise...
I put a first-level Shade Vampire (yes, really, and without Durable, but not gimped otherwise) through two near-TPK encounters, along with a Vryloka Blackguard and a Revenant Gloombinder. The first encounter was a kobold ambush with loads of minions, two slingers, a dragonshield, and a nasty trap. Beforehand I thought maybe the minion-spam would give the Vampire some trouble, but I played the Vampire as if he knew he was "fragile", using the ridiculous Stealth bonus to hide from the slingers while swatting down minions with Taste of Life. The Binder went down first (taken out by the slingers), the Blackguard one-shotted(!) the dragonshield and was then taken out by the trap, and only then did the few remaining kobolds manage to mop up the Vampire.
To see what would happen after the first nasty fight of the day, I decided to have the party be "captured" and that they could use whatever surges were available to heal up. The Blackguard still had plenty, the Binder had only one left, and the Vampire spent his only surge (and regen'd back to half HP). They were then promptly disarmed and tossed into a cavern to be fed to a fledgling white dragon who likes his meals with a little fight in them. Long story short: after a quick combat that left the dragon bloodied, the Vampire was the lone survivor (if undeath is alive) due to a lucky death save, several Stealth rolls, and believe it or not, the Shade's racial ability.
Anyway. What did I learn from all that? Mostly that kobold slingers are a nasty piece of work. I was also a bit disappointed that the Binder did not seem to work out in play all that well. It's a really neat concept, but in practice they get controller damage, mediocre control effects (push 2, whoopee), and a pact boon that almost never triggers. I really think the Binder was the most fragile of the trio, even with the same Con and nearly the same defenses as the Vampire. Maybe things get better at high levels.
I also learned that temp hp are super awesome. The Vryloka Blackguard had two different encounter powers (Lifeblood and Shroud of Shadow) to get them, and put them to good use. And Taste of Life should absolutely be the bread & butter of every Vampire. The Slam is for OAs and charges only, and Dark Beckoning is very situational.
The Vampire's low number of healing surges never really became an issue, though admittedly this was not a typical play session. But the Binder blew through six out of seven surges in that first fight (healing potion, second wind, 4 more to recover afterward), and it put him in just as bad a spot as the Vampire with none. And the Binder had no temp hp powers, no regen, nothing to help him when things got bad.
But basically, the end message I got is that Vampires are OK. Really, it's only that final surge that matters, and as long as it's there a Vampire can pop back up, regen to half HP, and try Blood Drinker again in the next encounter. That (and Taste of Life) is a lot more than most classes get. Yeah, they're fragile, but so are Rogues and Wizards (and Binders, it seems). Damage was never huge, but consistent. Vampires honestly seem most like Monks, mechanically: specialist strikers with excellent mook-clearing and a side helping of control.
Oh, and PS: Blackguard generic bonus damage plus Fury bonus damage plus Smite damage plus Vengeance Strike bonus damage = one dead dragonshield kobold. Holy crap, he nova'd and I didn't even realize it was possible until the opportunity was right there.
I put a first-level Shade Vampire (yes, really, and without Durable, but not gimped otherwise) through two near-TPK encounters, along with a Vryloka Blackguard and a Revenant Gloombinder. The first encounter was a kobold ambush with loads of minions, two slingers, a dragonshield, and a nasty trap. Beforehand I thought maybe the minion-spam would give the Vampire some trouble, but I played the Vampire as if he knew he was "fragile", using the ridiculous Stealth bonus to hide from the slingers while swatting down minions with Taste of Life. The Binder went down first (taken out by the slingers), the Blackguard one-shotted(!) the dragonshield and was then taken out by the trap, and only then did the few remaining kobolds manage to mop up the Vampire.
To see what would happen after the first nasty fight of the day, I decided to have the party be "captured" and that they could use whatever surges were available to heal up. The Blackguard still had plenty, the Binder had only one left, and the Vampire spent his only surge (and regen'd back to half HP). They were then promptly disarmed and tossed into a cavern to be fed to a fledgling white dragon who likes his meals with a little fight in them. Long story short: after a quick combat that left the dragon bloodied, the Vampire was the lone survivor (if undeath is alive) due to a lucky death save, several Stealth rolls, and believe it or not, the Shade's racial ability.
Anyway. What did I learn from all that? Mostly that kobold slingers are a nasty piece of work. I was also a bit disappointed that the Binder did not seem to work out in play all that well. It's a really neat concept, but in practice they get controller damage, mediocre control effects (push 2, whoopee), and a pact boon that almost never triggers. I really think the Binder was the most fragile of the trio, even with the same Con and nearly the same defenses as the Vampire. Maybe things get better at high levels.
I also learned that temp hp are super awesome. The Vryloka Blackguard had two different encounter powers (Lifeblood and Shroud of Shadow) to get them, and put them to good use. And Taste of Life should absolutely be the bread & butter of every Vampire. The Slam is for OAs and charges only, and Dark Beckoning is very situational.
The Vampire's low number of healing surges never really became an issue, though admittedly this was not a typical play session. But the Binder blew through six out of seven surges in that first fight (healing potion, second wind, 4 more to recover afterward), and it put him in just as bad a spot as the Vampire with none. And the Binder had no temp hp powers, no regen, nothing to help him when things got bad.
But basically, the end message I got is that Vampires are OK. Really, it's only that final surge that matters, and as long as it's there a Vampire can pop back up, regen to half HP, and try Blood Drinker again in the next encounter. That (and Taste of Life) is a lot more than most classes get. Yeah, they're fragile, but so are Rogues and Wizards (and Binders, it seems). Damage was never huge, but consistent. Vampires honestly seem most like Monks, mechanically: specialist strikers with excellent mook-clearing and a side helping of control.
Oh, and PS: Blackguard generic bonus damage plus Fury bonus damage plus Smite damage plus Vengeance Strike bonus damage = one dead dragonshield kobold. Holy crap, he nova'd and I didn't even realize it was possible until the opportunity was right there.
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WalterKovacs
First Post
I would say the binder is very much a specific kind of controller. He is very much about keeping melee opponent's out of the fight. Not to mention, without a leader OR a defender, you are going to get pretty whacky results. Vampir and Blackguard do seem like the kind of characters that may be able to survive without a defender or leader (although both is bound to lead to problems), but the binder doesn't really get anything to protect himself outside of shadowwalk. Maybe a necromancer mage with his little bit of thp generation may have worked well. Throw in a battlerager fighter and you could have a party that may be able to run without a leader.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
[MENTION=60886]bganon[/MENTION] Would XP you again, but i must spread it around...
As a follow-up: I realized I should've taken into account that the Binder also really did just roll badly. Bad luck can kill any fragile PC. Echoing Dirge is actually nice as an at-will since it multitargets without provoking OA, so there is that.
As for the leaderlessness, I gave everyone a healing potion each encounter that they could use, as sort of a leader replacement. Only one actually saw use, though. I think there was another important lesson that I already should've known, but forgot the importance of: Waiting until you're bloodied to heal or nova is not a great idea against a creature that can basically twin-strike 1d12+4 attacks and then action point for a breath weapon. With the new monster math and fixes for brutes, white dragons are a lot scarier than they used to be.
A little off topic, but I also realized that maybe the Shade's racial ability does have a place. I still think it's a wee bit underpowered, but there are times in combat when a melee character isn't within a move action of a good target, and charging isn't a good idea for whatever reason. So what do you do with your standard? Mess around with positioning or try a stunt would be my usual answer (I don't think I've ever actually used total defense), but the Shade has another trick. It's much better than total defense since you can basically convert any cover at all into total invisibility, and gaining CA next round is just kind of a freebie.
As for the leaderlessness, I gave everyone a healing potion each encounter that they could use, as sort of a leader replacement. Only one actually saw use, though. I think there was another important lesson that I already should've known, but forgot the importance of: Waiting until you're bloodied to heal or nova is not a great idea against a creature that can basically twin-strike 1d12+4 attacks and then action point for a breath weapon. With the new monster math and fixes for brutes, white dragons are a lot scarier than they used to be.
A little off topic, but I also realized that maybe the Shade's racial ability does have a place. I still think it's a wee bit underpowered, but there are times in combat when a melee character isn't within a move action of a good target, and charging isn't a good idea for whatever reason. So what do you do with your standard? Mess around with positioning or try a stunt would be my usual answer (I don't think I've ever actually used total defense), but the Shade has another trick. It's much better than total defense since you can basically convert any cover at all into total invisibility, and gaining CA next round is just kind of a freebie.
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