The Warrior (Variant Fighter)

[GnomeWorks]

(have you seen the latest thread, the one where I used a chart to show how I planned to associate the classes?)

Just went and took a look at it. Looks like it's coming along nicely, though I'd like to see what you've got beyond those few pages ...

I'm trying to make the core bits more suited to specific FF style archetypes (in the Warrior's case you have Dragoons, Berserkers, Knights and such as different types of core "Warrior").

Hmm... so you're trying to make a class that would serve as an intro to these examples? IE, taking Warrior with lances/spears as an intro to Lancer?

I'm also sorta waiting on your blue mage to get fleshed together as I'll be using it for the Base of my Blue Mage construction.

Hmm... aside from needing to finish N-Z, I think it's pretty much done. The abilities aren't going to change, hopefully, so all that's left is going through the remaining monsters and giving levels to the abilities.

Though I would still prefer to go with the slot costs, there's only 3 (or so) broken abilities using it that could be given arbitrary values... but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[Frum]

Warrior to level 10

Now I'm up to level 10 with this revised version. I've broken down and borrowed content from the WotC splatbooks to fully detail everything. It at least "looks good" to me up to level 10.

Assuming I understand the rules correctly, I think that it might be a bit weak to 10th level, but only slightly. I am also assuming that this class is similar in other respects to the Fighter (d10 HD, 2+Int skill points per level and similar class skills).

If so, the class receives the same number of bonus feats, but from a smaller selection, which does make the class weaker. The one gain they get is in versatility with the changing of favoured weapon, which will be rarely used for most characters, and the Intimidate bonus with the favoured weapon.

I think that it is o.k. if your intent is to 'power down' the character classes a bit, but it seems strictly weaker than the Fighter to level 10. I can't speak to the later levels. At the very least, I would increase the circumstance bonus to Intimidate to +2; the bonus will only often apply to demoralizing an opponent, so the more typical +2 circumstance bonus will not unbalance the class.

I like it though; just by limiting the weapon proficiencies of the class, it distinguishes warriors from one another quite nicely, even to level 10.

 

[Creamsteak]

Well, we have one vote for weaker and one vote for stronger. I can see both angles, but I don't think that I need to up or down it any at this point. To expand on the next "rung" of feats, there will only be 1 feat per path (so 24 feats to choose from total, of which the typical warrior selects 6 through class features). The Weapon Specialization/Focus stuff is obvious, as I'm sure anyone can tell.

I will consider the +2 bonus to intimidate, or possibly even +3, or perhaps a level or ability score (Str?) dependant function.

The last two rungs of class abilities will be non-feat special abilities. The Master Warrior's Path will allow the Warrior to select a unique special attack related to their chosen weapon (something like the above two SGF style examples). At Legendary Warrior, the bonus is determined by your favored weapon. So, if my favored weapon is axes, I'll have one special ability associated with Legendary Warrior that I can use when I hold my favored axe. If I change my favored weapon to a Lance, I'll have a different sort of special ability with a different weapon, and I'll lose access to my axe ability. Some of these will have psuedo-magical factors, I'm sure.

 

[Coredump]

Well, we have one vote for weaker and one vote for stronger

Well, lets break it down.

Weapon Groups:
Fighter: gets all martial
Warrior: gets 'only' four groups, but may include some exotics if double weapons are chosen.
Effective Advantage: Depends on if your character wants a double weapon.
Flavor Advantage: Warrior

Favored Weapon:
Fighter: Doesn't get it.
Warrior: +X to intimidate with weapon
Effective Advantage: Tied
Flavor Advantage: Warrior

Feats:
Fighter: Gets 6 feats, tons of choices, very flexible. Does not need to make any choices 'early'; except for chain pre-reqs.
Warrior: Gets 6 feats (not including possible exotic from above),*IF* planned ahead, has access to just about all the same desired feats as fighter. (Chosing 4 paths gives access for up to 20 feats, just pick the ones you want.) But if *not* planned ahead, desired feats may not be available. If player changes mind on character direction... feats may not be available.
Advantage: Slightly Fighter

Timing of feats:
Fighter: can take feat at any level without negative impact. (ie. wasting a slot) (1st level have Power Attack and Cleave. Great Cleave and/or Weap Spec by 4th level.)
Warrior: Needs to 'wait' on certain feats because they come 'free' later on.
Advantage: Fighter

Changing feat target:
Fighter: Cannot change the target of weapon focus and weapon Specialization.
Warrior: Can change it, but takes a few days.
Effective advantage: Tied. (Mostly will never occur. Does not give much of an advantage. Wait period will make it worthless for 'emergency' situations, and will be too easy to meet in other situations.)




By opening up the feat selection process, you have made the warrior more effective than they were, but removed most of the flavor benefit they had. Essentially, you have taken a fighter,and instead of having a pool of 25 feats (I guessed) they have a pool of 12/20 feats. I think you should stick with trying to add flavor that has meaning, make it more restrictive, yet more powerful in exchange.

 

[Creamsteak]

My judgement (throwing my own vote in the ring here) is that the Warrior, up to level 10, is able to measure up to a fighter, but I'm still not sure if the Warrior is better. It really is very game dependant. A lower-magic game, a game where the characters are never without their favorite weapons, a game where multiple splatbooks are allowed for feat selection, and a game that has heavy multiclassing would all weigh in differently.

In the above cases, the Warrior is better in the low-magic games. The fighter would be better in the other three variants. In a strictly core game, the warrior is definitely better based on his ability to switch weapons and having access to feats that are probably "better than the core choices."

I'm still not done thinking through levels 11-15, but I plan to keep this topic updated as I work.

 

[Coredump]

The *only* real advantage the warrior has is the ability to change the target of the weapon focus/spec. But I find this likely to be a very minor chance of it being helpful.

Compared to the negatives of late feats etc.... it would be a rare situation when the warrior would have the advantage.

 

[Frum]

The *only* real advantage the warrior has is the ability to change the target of the weapon focus/spec. But I find this likely to be a very minor chance of it being helpful.

Compared to the negatives of late feats etc.... it would be a rare situation when the warrior would have the advantage.

Except, if Creamsteak changes the bonus on intimidate to +3, that counts as one (perhaps suboptimal) feat at first level. The character could take exotic weapon proficiencies much more easily than a fighter at first level (if more than one). The second level feat is chosen for the character, but the later bonus feats come on odd levels rather than even levels, so the character could have the equivalent of three or even four bonus feats in the first three levels, as well as getting the other bonuses earlier than the warrior.

I think that this might give the warrior a potential advantage, or, at least, makes the warrior and fighter very close to equivalent balance-wise.

 

[Coredump]

Yes, it is *possible* for the warrior to have the advantage... but rare and unlikely. *If* you want to go with one or more exotic weapon proficiencies, *and* you planned on getting the feats later than you could, *and* you will end up switching primary weapons a couple of times... then it might be an advantage.

Exotics aside, warrior means you are forced to take WFocus, but that is no big hardship. *but* it also means you may end up waiting to take feats longer than a fighter would.
For instance, a fighter can easily get Great Cleave at 4th level, when do you think the warrior will get it?

 

[Frum]

tricky BAB requirements

Yes, it is *possible* for the warrior to have the advantage... but rare and unlikely. *If* you want to go with one or more exotic weapon proficiencies, *and* you planned on getting the feats later than you could, *and* you will end up switching primary weapons a couple of times... then it might be an advantage.

Exotics aside, warrior means you are forced to take WFocus, but that is no big hardship. *but* it also means you may end up waiting to take feats longer than a fighter would.
For instance, a fighter can easily get Great Cleave at 4th level, when do you think the warrior will get it?

I see your point about this now, and the advantage I thought existed does not, in many cases like Great Cleave, exist. Many of these advanced feats are not available at the levels that they would be for Fighters-not even close. A regular Fighter could have Whirlwind Attack before a Warrior had Great Cleave.

I was going to comment about how many of the feats seem balanced with the Fighter bonus feat progression in mind; the attack bonus required is almost always even, except for low level utility feats like Quick Draw and Weapon Finesse for which the requirement is +1 BAB, and last-in-chain feats like Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Precise Shot, which have a +11 BAB requirement. The Warrior could potentially take those two feats earlier; but for most others, they are at a disadvantage by BAB and by feat selection. Some of the feats are simply unavailable as bonuses to the warrior at any level that would be an advantage.

I am not sure how rare the exotic weapon proficiency would actually be; most fighters in my campaigns (which may or may not be typical) only use weapons from one or two of the weapon groups given for the warrior, so the exotic weapon from one of those groups would just be gravy.

On the other hand, players are very unlikely to change favored weapons with their characters, so for most this will be no advantage at all.

On the mutant third hand, PC warriors would always take weapon focus; I have yet to see a Fighter that did not.

I still think that the warrior is not terribly weak compared with the Fighter, and my understanding is that they are not to be used in the same campaign. It would be good if the later, post 10th level abilities were strong and unique. That would make it potentially the equal or better of the Fighter in utility, and superior in flavor, both of which would be good changes.

 

[Coredump]

I agree, I like the flavor of the warrior better than the fighter. In fact, I liked the original version even better, and it was weaker, but had better flavor.

I would suggest returning to the 'original' method where you were tied into a feat tree (instead of being able to pick any ones you wanted) but either ive the feats faster, or include more feats(though maybe weaker), or provide special abilities. Basically making it somewhat more restrictive, but more powerful. I would also have weapon focus/spec apply to all weapons of a proficiency group.