The whimsical element of D&D vs AD&D

The problem you're outlining though Rounser, isn't a system problem though. It's a group problem.
I disagree, because group dynamics are fairly constant IME, unless you have a very special group, and decide that Brian's fun to be around but he can't play at my table because he makes too many jokes about silly ways to use magic items. I'd suggest that it's a DM problem and a game culture problem and a game design problem.

It's been designed out of WOTC D&D. They explicitly told us that as of 3E as if it was axiomatically the way to go, and went further with 4E, by removing unfair monsters and items and anything that might be trivial and colorful for it's own sake.
It's been removed from the mainstream of D&D culture as this thread proves.
And it's not on the radar of most DMs as something to consider for their own game, as this thread also seems to prove. But that's culture for you, it's insidious and infects thinking without anyone realising it.
After all, if whimsy was so great and everyone loved it and it makes for such better games, why did we move away from it? Is the "common wisdom" so delusional that we cannot tell if our games are more fun than they were before? Are we so stupid that we're incapable of realizing that it was better before?
Abso-fracking-lutely, it happens all the time, from music to managerial styles, to the fashion industry. If what you were saying were true, then Top 40 would be all anyone would have to listen to, ever, and we would have found and stuck with the holy grail of managing people years ago etc.

Trends are often based on what is better theoretically, culturally or self-promotionally, whilst ignoring the details. Things are replaced just because someone wants to make a name for themselves, and "shake things up a bit", and make their own proud nails on the new project. And anything which is popular in it's time (e.g. AD&D, disco) will draw a crowd of pretentious types who try and turn it into high art which they think is unequivocably better for seemingly well-argued reasons, and we end up with Forge-style RPG design theory and progressive house.

This is not always a step forwards in reality, but it always is in theory, and often throws the baby out with the bathwater for reasons that make sense at the time.

These things have their place, but often they're not nearly as better as their pushers think they are. Often, they're just different, or arguably a lot worse, or created by someone who missed the point...or is making this because they are actually incapable of creating the thing they were originally a fan of, so this will have to do. Then they turn on the original creation as if it were no good in the first place, and that we know better now.

And they're better at marketing than the original marketers were, so a pale imitation takes it's place in the cultural ecosystem or marketplace. Happens all the time in electronic dance music, at least. And people like new bandwagons for many reasons which we all know, which may or may not have anything to do with progress, which by definition involves abandoning things, and sometimes arguably the wrong things get abandoned.

Plus, whimsy is often by definition low brow. It's not going to get respect for the same reasons that fantasy movies often get overlooked at the academy awards; there are cultural reasons why these things get sneered at, even if I really enjoyed The Scorpion King far more than I enjoyed that year's Best Movie. Or Pixar's animations, which are still overcoming the stigma of "cartoons are for kids" in the west, but are making headway.

I can't believe I'm having to point this stuff out, you do live in my world don't you? :) It's full of people wrecking things which work because they think they can do better, and often get proven very wrong indeed (although they'll rarely admit that even to themselves for umpteen reasons of culture, status, ego and theory). We're humans, and we're flawed, and it's how we pass the time.
Cheap shots about editions notwithstanding, I'll easily say that 4e can do whimsy with the best of them.
I'm reading the all-pre-WOTC-editions Encyclopedia Magica and the Hackmaster books at the moment, and I keep thinking on the gaping chasm between these books and what passes for D&D at the moment, and all the game design reasons why Noonan and Mearls would object to even harmless stuff, let alone seriously gamebreaking things that might actually kill characters or inconvenience them.

Heck, Sean K Reynolds has a rant about how disintegrating drow magic items should be banned because this is taking away things that the players "earnt fair and square"...an attitude to the game which IMO is not just a world away from Hackmaster or AD&D 1E, it's in another dimension. This isn't about cheap shots, it's just the way things are, and the current culture surrounding the game compared to what it once was.

You can't make D&D fair and equitable and focused without ditching a metric tonne of stuff that is just in D&D for fun. Inequity and injustice, trivial details and color, farce and cakewalks are at the core of comedy, pathos, tragedy and triumph and the best stories, and if you don't build them into the rules and splat, a lot of the time they just won't end up in the game. And unfortunately for 4E, the latter is a lot more memorable at the end of the day than whether your barbarian was treated fairly, and potentially more fun too.

That's why I can dismiss the Rolemaster or Hackmaster critical hits and fumbles tables for reasons of game design theory, but reconsider their value for reasons of memorability, drama, humour and fun, and try to think on a way to somehow make them work without inevitably crippling everyone, or regularly grinding the game to a halt from missing limbs or similar.
 
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I disagree, because group dynamics are fairly constant IME, unless you have a very special group, and decide that Brian's fun to be around but he can't play at my table because he makes too many jokes about silly ways to use magic items. I'd suggest that it's a DM problem and a game culture problem and a game design problem.
I disagree. All my groups are very different. There are some constants, but on the whole, the dynamics of the players are often as different as oil and water.

It's been designed out of WOTC D&D. They explicitly told us that as of 3E as if it was axiomatically the way to go, and went further with 4E, by removing unfair monsters and items and anything that might be trivial and colorful for it's own sake.
While I agree there is a lack of flavor on the part of much of the game design, I disagree that this is an attempt to remove whimsy from the game. I have always felt this was more a move to insert your own whimsy into the game.

It's been removed from the mainstream of D&D culture as this thread proves.
And it's not on the radar of most DMs as something to consider for their own game, as this thread also seems to prove.
Really? I admit I skipped a large portion of this thread, but that's sad. I was under the impression most were saying they enjoyed it in small degrees(which is should only exist in).
 



Last week my PC's fought sex golems in a dead wizard's pleasure palace while experimental noise music blared in the background (causing sonic damage to all).

Is that whimsical?

Did said golems use whips and chains for their attacks? If no, I'd call it all rather mundane. :p
 



Back in the old Basic/1E days I remember there being plenty of room for serious play and silly stuff in the same campaign, heck often in the same session. Is the problem perhaps that folks these days are just way more intolerant of any game time being not exactly the way they want it at every possible moment?

If that's the case then it is no mystery why finding a good group is difficult for some players.

Or, could it be that back in the day, we were twelve years old and pretty much didn't care about most of this stuff?

Or, perhaps, after twenty or thirty years of gaming, some of us have developed the ability to judge our own tastes and aren't willing to waste time on things we don't enjoy?

Or, perhaps even back in the day, some groups did play more serious games, with lots of drama and the like? After all, Dragonlance is certainly "back in the day" and, besides possibly Kender and gnomes, lack a considerable amount of whimsy.

There's a whole host of reasons why people don't want anagrams and silly names at their table. Simply dismissing them as intollerant is pretty harsh.

Rounser said:
Heck, Sean K Reynolds has a rant about how disintegrating drow magic items should be banned because this is taking away things that the players "earnt fair and square"...an attitude to the game which IMO is not just a world away from Hackmaster or AD&D 1E, it's in another dimension. This isn't about cheap shots, it's just the way things are, and the current culture surrounding the game compared to what it once was.

Funnily enough, back in the day, we ejected this as well. We were playing Vault of the Drow and that series and changed the rules so that the Drow stuff didn't disintegrate. So, it's hardly a WOTC, OH NOES THEY'RE CHANGING THE GAME, change.

See, the thing is, what you seem to be forgetting is most of the changes that came in in 3e already existed in many campaigns LONG before the changes became official.

Pointing fingers at WOTC for changes that were done in 1982 seems a bit much.
 

There's a whole host of reasons why people don't want anagrams and silly names at their table. Simply dismissing them as intollerant is pretty harsh.
I don't think EW is dismissing silly games or serious games. If I understood his post correctly, he's criticizing those who are themselves intolerant of slight deviations from one or the other.

Personally, I would have put it more like this: "Play the game you like, but don't get your panties in a wad."
 
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Funnily enough, back in the day, we ejected this as well. We were playing Vault of the Drow and that series and changed the rules so that the Drow stuff didn't disintegrate. So, it's hardly a WOTC, OH NOES THEY'RE CHANGING THE GAME, change.
Which would make your group Monte Haul for sure, but we all were. Such a move is Monte Haul ++ (but surely you're already munchkins after the wiping out the hit point bags in the G series if your group was typical).

I'd suggest that the "fairness and earnt drow treasure" is a bit of a furphy. If they'd all been umber hulks with the same stats rather than drow then that treasure wouldn't exist in the first place, and that would have been considered "fair". But that's not 3E-think.

It is true that disintegrating drow treasure is an inelegant solution (but a justifiable one in terms of flavour, in that it makes the dark elves all the weirder and more arcane) to the design problem of "if the PCs are primarily fighting classed characters with magic items, they will end up with too many magic items". That is not up for debate.

What is up for debate is the concept of what is fair, and whether the game world owes the PCs anything. That cuts to the very heart of the difference in assumption between Gygaxian AD&D and WOTC's take on D&D. One is kid gloves, the other more "damn the torpedoes". Which one is going to lead to the most fun being had by all? Now there's the motherlode of the debate. WOTC would have you believe that fairer is always better, as if we were playing Monopoly. I'd suggest it's nowhere near that clear-cut and simple, that such an approach cleaves away a lot of what made D&D fun and so very special in the first place, and that so few notice what has been lost is part of what we're discussing here.

I'd also add that under Gygaxian AD&D, somehow everyone ended up dressed up in a christmas tree of magic items anyway, despite drow treasure losses. :)
 
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