The Wizards of the Coats a 4e venture.

Goonalan

Legend
Supporter
Oh dear.

I know you're past this point in RL now, but I just wanted to say that I can really feel for you as the DM being in the middle of this!

Can't comment too much as I haven't played 4e myself, but I can certainly see both sides of the argument.

If I recall correctly from what you said in the Castle Whiterock thread, you play with this group online. I wonder if the disagreement would have been resolved more easily if it had all been done face to face? Or maybe not.

Anyway, hope you can get past it and have a successful game in the long run.

Thanks, although the damage is done, see future posts.

I think our problem is not really 4e related, more to do with a clash of personalities, and two distinct styles of gaming. It could have happened in Whiterock, in fact the arguments went unreported in the Whiterock write up, they were happening then but not to the same degree. Perhaps 3.xE allows for a more free form version of the game, the players roles were a little less confused. Defenders are boring, or so it seems to my players, a 3e fighter was a lug that just went mad with hammer and axe- well they were for my players- defender, hah, they defend nothing (save themselves), the fighter (and paladin, and sometimes ranger, and sometimes cleric, and barbarian and well more or less everyone except the dress wearing classes (wizards et al) were in like flynn- every combat more or less). 4e has made the players more conscious of their roles, and require PCs to be built (stats, feats & powers) predominantly to reflect their role.

The paladin in my game, Daja, seems to be point person and regardless of her AC is pretty busted up every fight, same the cleric and the rogue. In 3.xE the players saw combat as an opportunity for everyone to get dirty but something that lasted well, ten to twenty minutes, 2-5 rounds maybe, a good hit kills a kobold, or a Goblin, or Hobgoblin, or Orc- but not any more, thus the war of attrition which leaves half my players surgeless after four or five encounters while those at the back, or constantly in motion avoiding the fracas, a-ok.

Still we like the game and see another way of playing it, in future turns you'll see that we've changed the composition of the party, and discovered greater cohesion along the way, although (in-game) the test is yet to come.

Having said that the personality thing, two of the players at odds with each other, the in-game issues with roles was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I think it would be easier if we were sat around a table but that's not possible alas, although at times I think there'd have been a punch up, or a walking out- so maybe the use of MapTools could be seen as a boon.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, always appreciated,

Cheers
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Just to let you know, the ranger phenomenon is not unique to your group. Our party has a dedicated archer-ranger who's position tends to be towards the back, and he makes ranged attacks every round (he has a sword, but has litterally never drawn it). At 12 STR, 18 DEX, 16 WIS, he's a very effective character, he has a couple of ranger powers that help him slip out of melee when he is engaged, and the Eladrin teleport, as well. But, he has a 10 CON, nothing special for AC (Hide + DEX, that's it, no magic armor yet), and we treat him as a 'squishy' like the wizard (who's a 14 CON staff-of-defense type, and hardly squishy at all) and the 'lazer' cleric. We, however, have two defenders who like thier jobs, and two other melee types (rogue & warlord) - yeah, we're a bit party at 7 players.

I think the dedicated ranged striker works fine in a large party where there's enough melee enthusiasts to suck up the pain, and not always even quite enough room for everybody who wants to melee to get to the front, for that matter. In a smaller party, it's harder to set up and protect a 'back rank' and everyone needs to be ready to melee at least some of the time.
 

Goonalan

Legend
Supporter
Just to let you know, the ranger phenomenon is not unique to your group. Our party has a dedicated archer-ranger who's position tends to be towards the back, and he makes ranged attacks every round (he has a sword, but has litterally never drawn it). At 12 STR, 18 DEX, 16 WIS, he's a very effective character, he has a couple of ranger powers that help him slip out of melee when he is engaged, and the Eladrin teleport, as well. But, he has a 10 CON, nothing special for AC (Hide + DEX, that's it, no magic armor yet), and we treat him as a 'squishy' like the wizard (who's a 14 CON staff-of-defense type, and hardly squishy at all) and the 'lazer' cleric. We, however, have two defenders who like thier jobs, and two other melee types (rogue & warlord) - yeah, we're a bit party at 7 players.

I think the dedicated ranged striker works fine in a large party where there's enough melee enthusiasts to suck up the pain, and not always even quite enough room for everybody who wants to melee to get to the front, for that matter. In a smaller party, it's harder to set up and protect a 'back rank' and everyone needs to be ready to melee at least some of the time.

I see how treating the ranger as a "squishy" would work, as you say with a larger party. Our problem stems from the initial character generation when the Ranger said he would be half-and-half, melee and ranged, not ideal I know but that's what he was built to do STR 16 CON 12 DEX 18, but with only one player wanting to be the defender, actually defenders not what she wanted to be- she wanted to be the striker who just happens to be a Paladin, then we had to find stop-gap defenders, actually there wasn't a lot (any) talk about party roles.

We played KOTS with the pre-gens for a while, till we got heartily sick of the pre-gens, everybody who played the Paladin there hated him, and we swapped about a bit. In fact both Paladins we've used so far have been... unlucky, maybe that's not the word, when other players have been hitting the Paladin has been missing, constantly, both have been Dragonborn. Maybe there's nothing in that, maybe it's just us.

Anyway thanks for the input, much appreciated.
 

Goonalan

Legend
Supporter
Chapter 1 Part 6- Tucker kicks the bucket.

GAME DETAILS- Quests
1) Recover the Green Dragon Hide for Teldorathan (Status: Incomplete- need to return to collect reward).
2) Kill Kobolds and collect their heads for Lord Warden Markelhay’s bounty (Status: Ongoing).
3) Discover what “greater intelligence” is stirring up the Kobolds for Nemozaran- who is the Horned Lord? (Status: Ongoing).
4) Destroy the Kobold menace and save Oakhurst (Status: Complete).
5) Rescue the Gnomes of Waymoot (Status: Complete).
6) Solve Olvar and Sybil's differences (Status: Complete).
7) Find the missing gem from Belazamon's statue (Statue: Ongoing).
8) Destroy the Kobold Menace and save Oakhurst Part Two (Status: Ongoing)
9) Discover the location of the Horned Citadel for Sir Abraham (Status: Ongoing)


The intrepid adventures scan the remains of the battle and then head north, a pair of Kobolds escaped that way. A little while later they discover many more Kobolds, a nest of them- all females and children, one little scamp capers about admiring the shiny equipment of the adventurers- this is Tucker.

The rest of the Kobolds cower and grovel, while Tucker capers some more, clicking and yapping in his strange tongue, clearly excited at meeting new friends.

Talwyn slays the thing, firing an arrow, point blank range, through the young Kobold's head- which explodes like a melon.

Which doesn't go down well with some of his fellow adventurers, or the other Kobolds for that matter.

DM NOTES- although the paladin and the cleric are unaligned they clearly have strong views about this action, it's slightly strange from my point of view as Talwyn's backstory involves the traumatising of innocents (and the like) at the hands of strange demons, something he has vowed to fight against and the motivation for his character. Even the Rogue, Vik, gets in the way of the Ranger who intends to slay all of the women and kids. Bugger. The players are falling out big time- nobody likes the Ranger anymore, it goes quiet for a good while in-game, there's a lot of silent seething.

During the heated pushing and shoving, keeping the Ranger from killing the other non-combatant Kobolds, a new enemy arises, or rather is stumbled upon by Vik in his haste to avoid the tangle.

Avoiding a nasty pit trap the Eladrin moves a little way ahead into a guard room, he spots a couple of Kobolds hiding in a mushroom patch, and lets loose. Lambrini is quickly up for support followed by Falco, leaving Talwyn and Daja still whispering foul-nothings at each other.

Alas the fight gets dangerous quickly, in the next chamber to the north a Kobold Wyrmpriest and his Dragonshield guards are drawn to the action, one of the Kobolds in the initial fracas high tails it and is soon laying his sad tail at the feet of Meepo, the Kobold Chieftain, nay King, and his pet Deathjumper Spider, Ix- they decide to join the attack, and so in no time at all the war begins...

GAME DETAILS- Encounter level 6 [1075 XP]
Kobolds- Slinger [Level 1 Artillery] (x2), Skirmisher [Level 1 Skirmisher], Dragonshield [Level 2 Soldier] (x2), Wyrmpriest [Level 3 Artillery (Leader)] & Meepo, Kobold King [Level 5 Skirmisher] & Deathjump Spider [Level 4 Skirmisher]

DM NOTES- Ooopsie, sweet revenge.


Or so you'd think, the fight is terrible to behold, the Spider dashes in, jumps and bites and is soon surrounded, seemingly all other enemies forgotten except by the artillery, Talwyn who at last abandons his argument with Daja, and Lambrini- the pair focus their attention on the Wyrmpriest and drop the foul Kobold quickly, the Spider in the meantime comes to an equally sticky end.

DM NOTES- after some ridiculous amount of damage from Vik with a backstab- 32 damage, something like that- I was robbed.

Meanwhile Meepo has crept around to appear behind the players, his hand crossbow sings and he's ideally placed ,the far side of the pit trap the adventurers found their way past earlier, difficult to get to.

So, the adventurers charge off out of the way of Meepo and straight at the remaining kobolds, who are more than a little unnerved by this action, they're killed eventually and Meepo, for good measure, is surrounded- the Kobold Chieftain drops his weapon and pleads for forgiveness.

A little while later when the last drop of sense has been wrung from Meepo, who sits dejectedly on what was once his throne, now his prison, he's securely tied to the huge stone chair.

It seems the kobolds are in thrall to someone called Varkaze, a Hobgoblin Mage if Meepo is to be believed, who in turn works for someone called the Horned Lord- which rings a bell. Furthermore the Horned Lord harbours plans for world domination, or at least the Nentir Vale-shaped part of the world.

Meepo goes on to plead his case, he's the hired help at best, a prisoner at worst- he bats his eyelashes and looks forlorn some more. He argues that he should be spared the blade and will in reward do what he can to ensure that the Kobolds cease their attacks on trade caravans and the like and go back to their once peaceful existence- making lace handkerchiefs and “ethnic” art.

Meepo remains tied to the throne when the adventurers depart, a little richer, and with Kobold drawn maps showing the location of the Horned Citadel, which should make Sir Abraham happy.

DM NOTES- Falco also acquires a Belt of Vigour from Meepo, the hard way.

However they just can't resist a further nose about, and after discovering the Kobold women and kids have fled the lair, they head instead further into the cave system, into another chamber which shows recent signs of life, very recently abandoned- there they discover an exit which has been deliberately sealed by rubble and masonry.

DM NOTES- this was the second kobold kids and mums chamber, I got them out of there fast, save any further arguments.

Being adventurers they settle into their stereotypes and begin to dig out the once sealed chamber, a little while later they break through, clear the way properly, and head in- bring light and life (fresh blood) to the darkened chamber and the even darker inhabitants within.

Soon (as usual) all hell breaks loose.

GAME DETAILS- Encounter Level 1 [350 XP]
Cavern Choker [Level 4 Lurker] (x2)


The two Cavern Chokers put up a little resistance, choking Daja for a bit, but are no match for the adventurers, particularly as they flee when bloodied and are quickly destroyed by Talwyn's arrows and Lambrini's magic.

The two fine specimens of Lurker-kind are skinned to provide rubbery pelts which, it is threatened, will be used to make a cloak or a wetsuit- as soon as the holes are patched, I fancy the cloak.

The remains of a once brave, and fat, dwarf are found- he's lost weight, his pants don't fit him, he does however have a nice cloak- a Cloak of Resistance +1, this is quickly nabbed by Talwyn.

A second way out of the chamber, also sealed, is discovered, and left alone- several more bodies, young kobolds, are discovered and left to rot.

The adventurers return to the first chamber, the guardroom where they entered and take a good look around, another passage is found- it follows the river that flows into the chamber, deeper into the Stone Table.

“Varkaze?” Vik points up the passage, nods all round- they head of.

Following the river's windy passage through the caves, all the way to the base of a waterfall- there seems to be a track heading up and behind the plunging water. Shrugs all around, eventually Vik and latterly Talwyn are sent ahead to scout.

A little while later...

“What's that?” Vik cups his hand around his ear, like that's going to help.
Talwyn shrugs and nods for the Eladrin to head on.

Vik takes a few tentative steps forward and then notices the huge boulder rolling down the path towards them, alas the path is banked, a perfect runnel for the huge stone.

“RUN!” Vik races past Talwyn, who spots the danger and comes screaming after.

A little while later some more, the huge rock has come to rest at the base of the falls, the adventurers are unharmed, they file past and head on up, eager to discover who set the boulder in motion.

GAME DETAILS- Encounter Level 1 [425 XP]
Crushing Rock Trap [Level 2 Blaster], Hobgoblin Archer [Level 3 Artillery] (x2)

DM NOTES- that didn't work.


At the top of the falls two Hobgoblin Archers let loose, Daja is grazed by an arrow, soon after one of the Archer's is dead, and the other fleeing.

Vik moves forward alone, following the Hobgoblin as he runs, the Eladrin gets a good look at a cavern full of Hobgoblins, including what looks to be some sort of mage, the adventurers follow after and are swiftly into action.

GAME DETAILS- Encounter Level 3 [750 XP]
Hobgoblin- Soldier [Level 3 Soldier] (x2), Archer [Level 3 Artillery] (x2) & Varkaze, Warcaster [Level 3 Controller (Leader)]


The fracas starts at close quarters, the Hobgoblin soldiers form a defensive wall, a phalanx in the passageway outside of the chamber they inhabit, behind them the archers and the War Mage open up with the artillery, which is enough to send Daja to the floor again, and into the realms of unconsciousness, the Paladin's saviour is Lambrini, once more.

A Flaming Sphere later, this post a critical hitting Scorching Blast and the Hobgoblins are sunk, one Archer tries to flee but is cut down by missile fire.

The area returns to silence although the fight has taken its toll, several of the adventurers are on their last legs, staggering slightly, light-headed, after using almost every power they possess.

The chamber is searched, as are the Hobgoblins, more orders are found detailing the Horned Lord's activities, confirmation of the Horned Citadel's location is found, alongside treasure and a Healing Potion or two.

Yet the adventurers are still not done, there is one passage still unexplored, they press on.

DM NOTES- For a second, when Daja fell, and Vik had to retreat from the fight reduced to less than 5 hit points in one round, I thought I'd got them- then the natural “20”, Action Point and Flaming Sphere, the next thing this poor DM knew the Hobgoblin War Mage was gone, as was one of the Soldiers and an Archer. The second Soldier followed seconds later, and that suddenly left one Hobgoblin feeling very alone, he lasted a further six seconds.

Vik leads the way again, Talwyn a little way behind, and into a fairly spectacular looking chamber, circular and huge, light reflects and shimmers in the pool ahead, a waterfall in the far corner provides the audio, thick vegetation- creepers and vines grow around the outside of the chamber hiding the walls.

And in the centre of the lake, only now taking notice, is a Young Black Dragon, Nightscale, the Horned Lord's second lieutenant. The stealthy pair creep out again, and with all the other adventurers in tow back down the falls and back into the guardroom they first encountered- watch is posted, they rest.

Then, bright and early, on the morning of the 14th of Eleint, they rise and head off to slay the dragon, which is what passes for their day job.

GAME DETAILS- Encounter Level 4 [875 XP]
Nightscale, Young Black Dragon [Level 4 Solo Lurker]


The adventurers quickly realise that Nightscale is somewhat brighter, and better prepared, than the previous lieutenant, the beast settles for hovering over the lake employing its acid breath and frightful presence to scar and scare them. They on the other hand, save Falco, are incapable of reaching the dragon with their melee weapons, for the artillery however it's business as usual- the fight rumbles on, with the adventurers taking the worst of it.

And on.

Falco has used all his healing surges and yet the front line, now fanned out and employing their least effective missile weapons, is beginning to buckle, which is made worse when the entire area surrounding the great drake is cast into absolute darkness, even the artillery are without a clue.

Then Vik comes good.

Around the outside of the chamber is a stair, Vik climbs it till he's a little above the dragon, or at least where he thinks the dragon is, still cloaked in black, he leaps- and in the style of the action hero lands aboard the beasts back, and seconds later plunges his dagger into Nightscale, bloodying the beast finally, with a roar and a thrashing of wings, which dislodge the Eladrin, the dragon turns and flees muttering prophecies as it retreats, something about a Talon and the more of the Horned Lord's vengeance.

Dead on their feet the adventurers slump to the floor and for a good while rest.

A little later they search the chamber, discover money, a +1 Symbol of Life, a +1 Vicious Longbow, now property of Falco and Talwyn respectively; and finally beneath the waters of the lake a glowing gem, the same size and shape as the gem missing from the amulet in Belazemon's Lost Shrine.

That's not all they discover, the fire and fracas has done a great deal of damage to the vegetation in the chamber, Talwyn spots something on the walls and clears a section- markings, devotional symbols to the Raven Queen, soon it is clear that this place once served as a temple to the mistress of Fate.

All the vegetation is cleared away and a grand fresco is uncovered, it depicts a group of hardy souls, adventurers perhaps, lead by what looks to be Belazemon, who's shrine and tomb the adventurers ventured into earlier. Also present are a dwarf in plate armour with a glowing Holy Symbol of Kord, a robed Tiefling wielding an impressive looking stave, a huge armoured warrior grasping a glowing longsword face hidden inside an impressive dragon-visaged full-face helm. And one other, the one other is hard to make out, dressed all in black leather armour, crouched or rather small, it's hard to tell- this figure has been scratched and gouged, by huge claws, perhaps the claws of a dragon- certainly obscured enough to mask its identity.

As for Talwyn, Falco, Daja and Lambrini they are secretly certain that the adventurers depicted bare more than a passing resemblance to themselves, clearly Fate, and the Raven Queen is getting involved.

Vik takes the gem for now, and is blessed, it provides +2 to AC, and +1 to his other defences, he fashions a crude thong and wears it around his neck.

GAME DETAILS- Experience.
Each player receives 1705 experience points, quite a haul but they did get through a lot this session, for a total of 6388 XP each, the players need 11000 XP for level 3.


DM NOTES- it nearly fell apart, the group was pretty much four against one, for a while, the further they went on, the more they played and particularly when the action started with Varkaze, the Hobgoblin War Mage, and then on to Nightscale, the more they started to pull together- Talwyn even started tracking again. Perhaps the argument, disagreement- call it what you will, over the death of one measly Kobold child has cleared the air.

This new found cohesion is only temporary, I assure you.
 

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