The Wonderful Worlds of CRPGs

[robberbaron]

Black and White had children aplenty, with one of the early missions being to rescue them from an evil child-napper.
Pretty sure the game was only rated PG or 12 (I guess that would be T for Teen in the colonies).

 

[fnork de sporg]

I think it might be real fun to play in a slightly tongue in cheek world that is conciously built to include the many crpg tropes we all know and have experienced.

Even more fun when the programs start to become self-aware and realize they are inside a video game. How will they react? Will they try to escape to the real world? Or to another game or other program? Maybe the internet? Maybe the'll just stick around and exploit their world's programming to their own advantage.

Like a D&D version of Reboot.

I think it might be real cool.

 

[Zappo]

I don't know how true that is in America and Canada, but I do know that in some European countries it's illegal to sell any game where it's possible to harm or kill children. In the European version of Fallout 2, all of the children were removed from the game because killing NPCs is possible, and some of the "evil" quests actually involved you killing innocent NPCs (children included). In the case of The Temple of Elemental Evil, Troika decided to kill two birds with one stone and not put any children in at all, thus saving themselves the hassle of removing child NPCs from the European version.

Weird. My version of Fallout 2 had (killable) children alright. Maybe it was an import, I can't quite remember.

 

[Darkness]

Though it's a massive tangent...

Do I detect a bit of NorCal terminology?

Couldn't tell; I pick my English terminology up as I go along. I'm not a native speaker, after all.

 

[Darkness]

In the European version of Fallout 2, all of the children were removed from the game because killing NPCs is possible

The German version of Fallout 2 was even more heavily censored, with much less gore in general. Dunno about killing children, though.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Despite all their attempts at presenting an immersive and consistent universe, the developpers still don't like to feature "unnecessary" (for the plot) characters or items.

Because in almost all cases, it's not fun. A CRPG is not a social simulation, nor is it a simulation of the "real" world. It's a game with certain rules, which you win by accomplishing certain tasks. I think we can all agree that the current level of software and hardware design do not permit designers to create true virtual worlds. Something has to be left out. Game designers create puzzles, wrapped in rules, wrapped in graphics, wrapped in a story.

Both elements are key. The core game (the puzzle to be solved) has to be clean and fun. The wrapping has to draw the player in, provide positive feedback, and encourage play. Nowhere in this idea is a "real" world necessary. Elements of a real world, sure. Just not the whole thing. Anything that detracts from the fun has to cut.

Let's put it another way. We all know that private detectives' lives are nothing like Magnum P.I. So which game would you rather play - one where you spend hours staring at your monitor, waiting for the person your character is staking out to do something - only to find out that you staked out the wrong location because the game hid the one clue you needed in with a million other unnecessary items? Or a game where you get to beat up a few bad guys, solve the case, and get the girl, all in about an hour?

No, I don't want my CRPG's to be "real". I want them to be fun.

 

[WizarDru]

Despite all their attempts at presenting an immersive and consistent universe, the developpers still don't like to feature "unnecessary" (for the plot) characters or items.

You're asking for verisimilitude, not consistency or immersiveness.

You need to apply the 'Princess Bride' theory, here. In the book version of the Princess Bride, the author describes how his Grandfather read him the Princess Bride when he was sick, and how it was his most cherished story. So when he grew up, he decided he would translate it and release it in the US. The joke of the book is that it's supposed to be his translation of an actual European novel...and that when Goldman got the original text, he discovered that his grandfather had been reading him the 'good parts' version. That is, his grandfather had skipped over details of the original that were boring or added nothing to the story for a 10 year-old boy (such as the 200 page chapter on wedding prepartions).

The point I'm working towards is this: what do you gain from adding such elements in? You incur a lot more usage in both resources and time from the developer, but is the minor return in believability worth the effort expended? Should creating 100 more NPC models, dozens more locations and useless discussion chains and dialogue actually enhance the player experience? I don't think it necessarily does. I don't need to see a privy in every house, and I don't want to have to bother with every little detail to enjoy such a game.

This result in strange worlds, where it is a good idea to go bother everyone with your chit-chat, because everyone has important clues to tell you; even if you have to break in their homes for that. Is there a game where you can knock on Random NPC's door and wait for him or her to open? If so, I haven't seen it. Also, every item you can pick up is useful, and if no merchant want it, then you'll surely need it for a quest or another.

Not all games support this style of play, of course, and some actively discourage it. One of the very first things that the NWN community developed was different ways to enforce NPC disgruntlement with character looting. It's a console and computer RPG trope, at this point. Some games include it because players expect it.

That said, the question has to be asked again: what are you gaining from adding this level of detail? In Ultima IV, I remember being frustrated that I had to talk to every last NPC, asking them a dozen questions until I found the right one with something to contribute. Having lots of useless NPCs didn't enhance the game there, it merely made it tedious and artificially extended the game. It wasn't FUN.

And again, much of the NWN player community supports the sort of game you're looking for...but again, I'm not sure that it's really that great of a thing. Walking around the city in the first chapter of the original NWN campaingn, my friends and I quickly got tired of the useless chatter from some of the NPCs. They wasted our time to no real point. Two or three NPCs compaining about being evicted from their homes during the plauge is fine. By the twelfth NPC with nothing more than that to contribute, though, tedium sets in. NWN also features lots and lots of useless junk you can pick up. Again, you end up ignoring such things, because they don't contribute to the main game. The same thing applies to Final Fantasy 7 or Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles, IME. "Oh, Look! More....spring water. Grrr." "Oh, look! The chest had a bottle of ale.....Grrrr."

All CRPGs are doing is focusing the light on some of the tropes of a regular RPG, and then (by their nature) highlighting them when they cannot shift gears like a DM can. In a typical D&D game, you don't talk to every NPC in town...just the ones who directly influence the plot or offer a service you need. The main difference in a CRPG is that you can transparently tell who those people are. For a DM, the mention "You pass by a field with twelve peasants working there." takes no more resource than saying there are none, and the DM can change everything to accomadate a change...CRPGs don't have that luxury.

I understand what you're getting at, but my expeience has shown me that what you're asking for doesn't necessarily translate into a better game...just a more tedious one.

 

[Gez]

Walking around the city in the first chapter of the original NWN campaingn, my friends and I quickly got tired of the useless chatter from some of the NPCs. They wasted our time to no real point.

But you wasted your time because you assumed that they would have something insightful to contribute to your quest. In other words, you assumed that everything was there for a purpose, and that paradigm is both the result and the justification for the strangeness I described.

Note that I'm not complaining, it's just that I can't help but notice these oddities. They are about as common as non-sensical architectures (and I'm not speaking merely about dungeons, alien ruins, and magical places here).

 

[Sir Elton]

You know? It's really unfortunate that the Computer Roleplaying Game is much more socially acceptable than traditional pencil-and-paper roleplaying games. I mean really, it just bites me to see that the CRPG market has the greater share.

But I guess that means that pencil & paper gamers are some how apart from the CRPG player. Oh, we enjoy CRPGs from time to time, but as I played CRPGs I find that there is some distinct differences from CRPGs and the traditional format.

1). After 40 or more hours, the plot in a CRPG gets old. In other words, after 40 hours of gaming on a CRPG, your enjoyment of the plot reaches a critical mass and you maxed out what you payed for it. A traditional roleplaying game sparks the imagination inside your head and you will get many more hours of enjoyment.

In other words, you get more out of the traditional RPG. The traditional RPG is the cheapest form of entertainment you can get.

2). You can't control the plot in a CRPG. Well, in the Elderscrolls series, technically you can on a greater scale than in other CRPGs. But there is less control than what you can do with a traditional RPG.

For instance, suppose you buy a Japanese Dating Game (A Modern CRPG in which you date girls or guys). If the dating game contains illicit sex in it, and you encounter it, there is no way you can control it in the plot unless you stop playing the game. In a traditional RPG, however, you can control all aspects of the game so if you don't want sex you don't have to have it.

3). A traditional RPG requires more brain power than a CRPG. Yep, that is a statement in fact (this might be the clincher, actually).

4). Finally, did you ever notice that in a CRPG that everyone looks the same? I guarrantee that when the DM says you meet somebody fat, thin, average, built, etc. the traditional RPG has a long range of phenotypes as individual to the person. So in this case, the traditional RPG is much more realistic.

So I prefer the traditional RPG over the CRPG. But I admit that I indulge in the occasional Elderscrolls games. But now, I don't have to.