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The 'Wonderland'-Inspired Faces of the RAGE OF DEMONS
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7670765" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>[MENTION=1288]Mouseferatu[/MENTION], there's no <em>groan</em> button so I had to click <em>laugh</em> instead.</p><p></p><p>You're right that he wants power, and wants to eliminate rivals, but what does he want the power for? I don't feel we really get a sense of him using or enjoying the power. And he seems to surround himself with people (wights, orcs, trolls) who don't make for any sort of decent company.</p><p></p><p>Is this an FR thing? When I try to think of D&D villains that I've used in my games, only a handful come to mind: </p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">* Iuz (who is a bit like Sauron, but at least has a material body able to take some pleasure from his exercises of power);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* the Scarlet Brotherhood (power-hungry conspiratorial types);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* Za Jikku, the banished immortal of OA7 Test of the Samurai (who is trying to regain immortality by a combination of meditation and large-scale alchemy);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* Vecna (who in one campaign sought to restore his lost empire, and in my current 4e campaign wants to become god of death);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* and then extraplanar being: the Slaad Lords Ygorl and Ssendam (who have no fully rational motivations, but spread entropy and insanity respectively), and Demon Princes like Orcus, Demogorgon et al (who also have not fully rational motivations, but take great pleasure in spreading suffering and destruction).</p><p></p><p>Iuz, and 4e's Vecna, are probably the weakest of these in characterisation/motivation.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not sure how much weight should be put on the "irredeemably" element of the evil, but if we put that to one side then the game historically has tended to make acquiring the evidence quite easy: detection magic (Detect Evil, Know Alignment, etc).</p><p></p><p>There is always going to be a deep tension in trying to push the question "What makes this person evil?" while already answering the question "Is this person evil?" via a two-word alignment descriptor.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think that "irredeemably evil" and "just a monster to slay" have to be equated.</p><p></p><p>The PCs in my current 4e campaign, are aligned in various degrees with:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">* the duergar of the underdark;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* some drow NPCs;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* the god Bane;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* the archdevil Levistus;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* the vampire lord Kas;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* the Raven Queen (who in my campaign has turned out to be not a very nice person).</p><p></p><p>These people (except for the Raven Queen) all have "evil" in their stat blocks, and not without some good reason: the duergar and drow keep slaves and are notoriously cruel; the god Bane is a hard-hearted war-leader; Levistus traffics in souls; Kas is a blood-thirsty, vengeful vampire; the Raven Queen is self-serving and power-hungry.</p><p></p><p>But they are not just monsters to be slain. None of the PCs would think of themselves as evil, and nor would their players. But you can't always predict who you'll end up making friends with.</p><p></p><p>I don't find HPL's stories very horrific. Cthulhu, or a shoggoth, is <em>monstrous</em>, but I'm not sure that these things are ultimate evils.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7670765, member: 42582"] [MENTION=1288]Mouseferatu[/MENTION], there's no [I]groan[/I] button so I had to click [I]laugh[/I] instead. You're right that he wants power, and wants to eliminate rivals, but what does he want the power for? I don't feel we really get a sense of him using or enjoying the power. And he seems to surround himself with people (wights, orcs, trolls) who don't make for any sort of decent company. Is this an FR thing? When I try to think of D&D villains that I've used in my games, only a handful come to mind: [indent]* Iuz (who is a bit like Sauron, but at least has a material body able to take some pleasure from his exercises of power); * the Scarlet Brotherhood (power-hungry conspiratorial types); * Za Jikku, the banished immortal of OA7 Test of the Samurai (who is trying to regain immortality by a combination of meditation and large-scale alchemy); * Vecna (who in one campaign sought to restore his lost empire, and in my current 4e campaign wants to become god of death); * and then extraplanar being: the Slaad Lords Ygorl and Ssendam (who have no fully rational motivations, but spread entropy and insanity respectively), and Demon Princes like Orcus, Demogorgon et al (who also have not fully rational motivations, but take great pleasure in spreading suffering and destruction).[/indent] Iuz, and 4e's Vecna, are probably the weakest of these in characterisation/motivation. I'm not sure how much weight should be put on the "irredeemably" element of the evil, but if we put that to one side then the game historically has tended to make acquiring the evidence quite easy: detection magic (Detect Evil, Know Alignment, etc). There is always going to be a deep tension in trying to push the question "What makes this person evil?" while already answering the question "Is this person evil?" via a two-word alignment descriptor. I don't think that "irredeemably evil" and "just a monster to slay" have to be equated. The PCs in my current 4e campaign, are aligned in various degrees with: [indent]* the duergar of the underdark; * some drow NPCs; * the god Bane; * the archdevil Levistus; * the vampire lord Kas; * the Raven Queen (who in my campaign has turned out to be not a very nice person).[/indent] These people (except for the Raven Queen) all have "evil" in their stat blocks, and not without some good reason: the duergar and drow keep slaves and are notoriously cruel; the god Bane is a hard-hearted war-leader; Levistus traffics in souls; Kas is a blood-thirsty, vengeful vampire; the Raven Queen is self-serving and power-hungry. But they are not just monsters to be slain. None of the PCs would think of themselves as evil, and nor would their players. But you can't always predict who you'll end up making friends with. I don't find HPL's stories very horrific. Cthulhu, or a shoggoth, is [I]monstrous[/I], but I'm not sure that these things are ultimate evils. [/QUOTE]
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