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The 'Wonderland'-Inspired Faces of the RAGE OF DEMONS
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<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 7670813" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>Hmmm, looks like I assumed too much shared context when I sketched the scenario. (Due to my background, I tend to assume that everybody is thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament, which isn't really true on the Internet.) To explain: in history and legend, whenever somebody lies to a king about his alignment, they don't lie to tell him he's <em>evil</em>, they lie to tell him he's <em>good</em>. (Think: Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah to king Ahab of Israel, or what they asked Sir Thomas Moore to do for Henry VIII.) When someone tells the king he's evil, the messenger gets shot. A messenger has zero incentive to lie and tell a king he's evil when he's not--but he does have an incentive to lie and tell an evil king that he's fine. Furthermore, the king has zero incentive to "cast" Know Alignment on himself, because he doesn't actually want to know the answer, at least judging from the historical record.</p><p></p><p>So the scenario, as I intended to present it, is entirely about the reliability of labels ("epistemic" as you call it) and not about the reliability of witnesses. The king doesn't have to accept the judgment of the objective witness (Know Alignment spell/prophet/holy sword/whatever), and usually doesn't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that is equally the case in D&D.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This bolded section is what I've been saying. Certainly I don't buy the notion that the inhabitants of the Abyss would cop to being "evil." They would tell you that that's just how the world is, and everyone who says it's different is just fooling themselves and/or you. "Everybody has a price," they would say. Dale Carnegie's observation that everyone is a good guy in their own heads applies equally to fiends and devils, even if they <em>are</em> objectively, irreversibly awful. Or rather, it applies to any fiends I'd be interested in having in my game.</p><p></p><p>TLDR; human feelings and blackest evil are not mutually exclusive. They can go hand in hand with no trouble at all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 7670813, member: 6787650"] Hmmm, looks like I assumed too much shared context when I sketched the scenario. (Due to my background, I tend to assume that everybody is thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament, which isn't really true on the Internet.) To explain: in history and legend, whenever somebody lies to a king about his alignment, they don't lie to tell him he's [I]evil[/I], they lie to tell him he's [I]good[/I]. (Think: Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah to king Ahab of Israel, or what they asked Sir Thomas Moore to do for Henry VIII.) When someone tells the king he's evil, the messenger gets shot. A messenger has zero incentive to lie and tell a king he's evil when he's not--but he does have an incentive to lie and tell an evil king that he's fine. Furthermore, the king has zero incentive to "cast" Know Alignment on himself, because he doesn't actually want to know the answer, at least judging from the historical record. So the scenario, as I intended to present it, is entirely about the reliability of labels ("epistemic" as you call it) and not about the reliability of witnesses. The king doesn't have to accept the judgment of the objective witness (Know Alignment spell/prophet/holy sword/whatever), and usually doesn't. And that is equally the case in D&D. This bolded section is what I've been saying. Certainly I don't buy the notion that the inhabitants of the Abyss would cop to being "evil." They would tell you that that's just how the world is, and everyone who says it's different is just fooling themselves and/or you. "Everybody has a price," they would say. Dale Carnegie's observation that everyone is a good guy in their own heads applies equally to fiends and devils, even if they [I]are[/I] objectively, irreversibly awful. Or rather, it applies to any fiends I'd be interested in having in my game. TLDR; human feelings and blackest evil are not mutually exclusive. They can go hand in hand with no trouble at all. [/QUOTE]
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