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Message: <blockquote data-quote="seasong" data-source="post: 939543" data-attributes="member: 5137">Hey green slime, before I start into the rest of this, I wanted to apologize for my tone. I'm not sure why I was being so snippy, but I will stop now - you are bringing up very good points, just on a topic I'm not as concerned with as the utility of the armor <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" />So, with that said, I will now devote myself to the issue of cost, as it seems more important to my audience <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />,You are forgetting skill focus. Masterwork tools are unnecessary. And 14 is not that far from center - 16% of the population has a 14 or higher in something, and 2.7% of the population (1 in 40 people) has an INT of 14 or higher. Even if you assume that 1% of the population is adventurers, that leaves 1.5-2.5% of the INT folks as craftsfolk, which is more than enough to supply every podunk village with an exceptional artisan. And if he's that, I don't think putting his one feat towards his most useful skill is out of the question.Unfortunately, a higher DC (coupled with the correspondingly higher skill) simply results in a shorter time to manufacture. In fact, raising the DCs is the best way to make production easier for PCs. I still don't have a good set of rules for crafting - the question gets very complicated, very quickly.You have jumped from my one fighter example, requiring no terrain advantage whatsoever, to terrain-advantaged groups. And in most of those terrain-advantaged groups, the advantage was that the group didn't have to fight very many people at once.Technology is a force multiplier. And this was not a standup fight. I don't think you really want to argue that D&D fighters have realistic capabilities - you're likely just responding to my snippy tone <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> (see apology above).Actually, increased skill has surprisingly little impact on the time it takes, unless you raise the DC simultaneously.a1) And how does this impact a level 1 craftsman? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />a2) No, the DMG prices don't. Not for crafters, anyway, although I think they should (I'm fond of 1 sp per level, as I tend to set "apprentice" at level 1-2, and professional at 3rd, so that dovetails nicely).a3) Unfortunately, now I'm at work (sans DMG), but I did check a2 above before I left this morning. It's a flat 3 sp. Mercenaries DO get improvement by level, though.Steel costs the same whether it is beaten into plates or drawn into wire. It still requires the same effort of refinement. Mail has more unusual tools associated with it than plate (excepting helmets, which we still don't fully understand). There are no travel expenses, unless you count things which apply to both types of armor (acquiring the steel or tools, shipping to the owner). Coal, heating, rent and bribes are again very close to equal for both.Furthermore, drawing steel into wire is something that the armorer generally hired someone else to do, by buying it pre-drawn. That is not conducive to believing that the raw materials should cost 10% of the plate!My concern is not with the specific organizations or special interests or taxes in your campaign. This merely establishes the minimum profitable price, and you can set your social markup however you want. Although honestly, I should have put that in the rules - the problem with writing rules for yourself, and then posting them to a public forum <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!    :o"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" />Ah. See, the way you worded it, I read it as a response to everything I said, and seemed to be ignoring my comments on wages. You seem to be wanting the system to include all of the lawyers, duties, etc... but these will vary from county to county, much less campaign to campaign. I provide the minimal profit margin - you can mark it up how you want.To give an example: Let us assume that there is a 10% tax on all sales (and no other complications). Plate armor can now no longer be sold by the artisan for 200 GP, because his own wages would suffer a 20 GP cut. So he marks it up to 225 GP, gives 22.5 GP to the King, and pockets his wages plus an extra little bit for the time and administrative overhead of doing the taxes.So, I could have set the price at 225 GP. But what if your kingdom has a tax rate of 20%? Do you try to reverse engineer my pricing?You can also, very easily, simply double all prices due to guild presence. And then allow adventurers to haggle with the merchant to try to get it cut down a bit... and now you have a fair idea of what "unprofitable" is, so a merchant won't go that low, no matter what the dice say.</blockquote>

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