Themes: What's the Catch?

[AbdulAlhazred]

They do let you switch themes as you level up.

Interesting. I had not heard that mentioned anywhere as an option. If you can pick up a theme during play that pretty much deals with the only real objection I had. I'm still a bit equivocal about the added power, but so it goes.

 

[cdrcjsn]

I agree it's power creep.

But I think the real reason is that they're needed to make core characters on par with Essentials characters.

If you look at the Essentials Wizard vs. the Core Wizard for example, it seems the Essentials wizard is slightly stronger, with an extra ability at 1st level.

If you add a Theme to a Core Wizard, it seems to match the same power level.

It's been a while since I playtested 4e but it seems to fit the power level and my guess is that we'll see more generic Themes for use outside of Dark Sun for use by core characters, and that Themes won't be an option for Essentials characters.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I agree with the posters who said themes will be in Heroes of Shadow. That would be a fine addition to the game, plus addin some DDI, for those who DDI.

 

[Gort]

It's good old-fashioned power creep. They're planning to bring it to vanilla D&D, too. I say just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Thing is, though, many of the Dark Sun monsters are hyper-powerful. If the players get powerups, and the monsters get powerups, is it still power creep? Likewise, the Monster Manual 3 damage values powered up the monsters - is that power creep?

I guess Dark Sun 4e is the Forgotten Realms of 3e - I remember half the stuff in Forgotten Realms 3e being overpowered compared to vanilla.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Thing is, though, many of the Dark Sun monsters are hyper-powerful. If the players get powerups, and the monsters get powerups, is it still power creep? Likewise, the Monster Manual 3 damage values powered up the monsters - is that power creep?

Yes. Absolutely, unequivocally, yes.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree it's power creep.

But I think the real reason is that they're needed to make core characters on par with Essentials characters.

If you look at the Essentials Wizard vs. the Core Wizard for example, it seems the Essentials wizard is slightly stronger, with an extra ability at 1st level.

If you add a Theme to a Core Wizard, it seems to match the same power level.

It's been a while since I playtested 4e but it seems to fit the power level and my guess is that we'll see more generic Themes for use outside of Dark Sun for use by core characters, and that Themes won't be an option for Essentials characters.

I see no evidence that themes are restricted to pre-Essentials classes. In fact in DS at least that seems to be not true at all as it appears quite possible and even expected to use DS with Essentials.

I don't really think Essentials classes are stronger either. I mean it isn't possible to say entirely for sure, but the addition of new Magic MIssile as a free power for Mages? Hardly going to be significant, it is a miserable power that is hardly as good as PHB1 at-wills, let alone the better new at-wills (which the PHB1 wizard can always use).

I think theme's are just plain a little bit of extra power at level 1 for anyone that takes them. It doesn't look so amazing that it will really change balance in any significant way. I was only annoyed about it from the standpoint that it pushes players to slap a theme on the character for purely mechanical reasons, regardless of how appropriate it is or if it is even sensible for them to HAVE a theme at all. It is the same issue that came up with the Windrise Ports background except more so. It was (for some character builds) so tempting to use that half of LFR characters seem to hail mysteriously from Windrise Ports. Now, how many people want to bet that there will be 1-2 themes that are like that as well? So mysteriously we'll have parties chock full of pirates or gladiators or whatever. This is why I'd have preferred these things either require a resource to acquire or else were not giving mechanical benefits.

 

[Gradine]

Nice, TC

The only thing that annoys me about the whole theme thing is the way you're stuck putting your character into a certain theme right from the start. Given that there will be a mechanical benefit to taking one you either box your character into a specific theme right off or you can't do it at all and on top of it you're being mechanically punished. I'd have really preferred if they had no net mechanical benefit, like say all the powers were swaps, and it was possible to pick up a theme during play. This is the nice thing about PPs and EDs, they can grow out of what the character actually DOES. I think it was a bit of an awkward way to implement it from a character development perspective.

The nice thing about themes, though, is that it's much MUCH easier to build a house-ruled theme of your own, especially if you don't intend to deal at all with the themed power-swaps or paragon paths and are only looking for that initial bonus. It's literally:
Pick a secondary role
Pick a power source
Design a single Granted Power

That's something a DM and Player could pound out together in five minutes tops.

 

[Klaus]

Some rides can be quite fun.

Gah! Must spread dig--... XP first!

 

[Henry]

It occurs to me that it would be quite easy to bring themes to default D&D without power-creep -- just exclude the free encounter power, give them a bonus at-will or no bonus at all, and then keep the rest as normal, because to get a theme power you still have to sacrifice one of regular powers.

 

[Scribble]

It occurs to me that it would be quite easy to bring themes to default D&D without power-creep -- just exclude the free encounter power, give them a bonus at-will or no bonus at all, and then keep the rest as normal, because to get a theme power you still have to sacrifice one of regular powers.

I kind of wonder if the non Dark Sun themes when they get introduced will work more like that...