Theocracy vs. Magocracy: who would win?

mmu1...Bringing in druids makes little to no sense. I suggested adding bards because the theocracy has the basic priest, basic fighter, and one hybrid class between the two. The magocracy has the basic wizard and the basic fighter, with no hybrid class. Thus, the closest thing to a hybrid class for the magocracy would be the bard. The only other hybrid would be fighter/mage, but there are no fighter/clerics mentioned, now are there?

Adding in the druid, which is a priest but nature oriented less than diety/city oriented, would not only not fit in to this organized, civilization-war based scenario, but would cause the magocracy to need yet another class to compensate for the lack in variety. Logic is your friend :D
 

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Well here some of Timeline's "Tech" Units (TUs), all of which you apply various races to (Denizen Units - DUs):

Aristocrats
Clerics
Mages
Rogues
Environmentalists (Druids)
Entertainers (Bards)
Peasants (Commoners)
Diplomats (Experts)
Lawyers (Experts)
Merchants (Experts)
Scientists (Experts)
Alchemists (Experts)
Settlers (Experts)

You can add these as templates to military units (MUs) with varying results. For the most part medieval-era societies have far more peasants than anything else. However, every civ is going to have at least a few of all of these.

You also have to factor in land units (LUs), resources, disasters, artifacts...

http://www.d20timeline.com
 

Hmm... I really think that it all depends on the political arena and how the common man views what is happening.

For example you may actually have some clerics in the Magocracy...and some Wizards in the Theocracy..

So..what it boils down to..if both countries..um sides, have the same power base, or to be precise, balanced resources...then by the way that 3e has been designed everything should be balanced. therefore...to determine the winner of this contest...FLIP a coin...and todays winner is...Heads - Magocracy, And tomorrows is Tails - Theocracy. badda boom!!!
 


Clerics have:

Two strong saves
Armor and Good weapon selection
Healing
higher Charisma
Higher HP

Paladins have:
Divine bonus to Saves from Charisma
Lay on Hands

Wizards have:
Greater Direct Damage
Teleport

I'm going to say that the spell-power and the individual armies are going to cancel each other out. Then it comes down to the rules weight of the leaders. Clerics are far more heavy than wizards in the Rules Perks department, even if bards are on the other side. If the clerics can hire some sneaky monks to go kill some wizards, so much the better - that's a function of diplomacy, though, I'm guessing.

I'm also of the opinion that units and formation are not a big part of war in a setting with spells like Fireball.

VRYLAKOS
 

Darkness said:
A theocracy's troops probably have better morale. Plus, clerics are utterly broken in 3e. :D

This isn't necessarily true, thanks to things like the Enchantment school of magic.

If, in boot camp, you cast Charm Person on each new recruit each day, imagine what a great brainwashing tool that would be!
 

Wizards win, mostly because their damage to unit ratio is so high, but also because they have the ability to take out enemy commanders at range or by surprise (teleport, invisibility, etc.).

Anyone who's played a real time strategy game knows that offensive capability is far superior to defensive capability. Plus it's not fair to assume that clerics have higher morale troops--the majority of the population may simply not be religious, or worse, be of a rival religion.

Clerics are overpowered in 3E as far as adventuring heroes go, but nothing matches a mage in battlefield firepower.
 

I think it would all come down to how long the arms race was between the two countries before hand. After all magical weapons and constructs are utterly devistateing but they take time to create. What I see happeining is as follows.

The LG theocracy and an either LN or N magocracy have been disputeing a choice peice of land on the boarders of their respective countries. The clerics want to attack at the first oppertunity but are forced by their religion to seek a peaceful resolution. The mages enter extreemly long and drawn out negotiations, all the while planning on strikeing first and prepareing as such. The clerics prepare as well but lacking the ability to create large numbers of magical weapons or magical constructs they are quickly outstripped.

The first blows of the war arn't struck on a battlefield but in the capitol city of the theocracy when several high level mage/assasins strike down the leaders of the priesthood, the paladin knights, and many other important figures. Several of the assasins are caught and punished but the moral of the theocracy is shaken upon seeing their beloved leaders murdered. The theocracy goes into damage control and manages to whip their followers into a vengeful mob but they still lack organization. Meanwhile the bards in the magocracy extole the virtues of the heroic assasins turning them into a sort of folk hero martyer.

The disorganized theocracy troops attack the well dug in mage troops and are decimated peacemeal much in the way many crusaders lead by quasi sane preachers were killed.

After blunting the disorganized offencive the mages go on the offencive. They had previously brokered a deal with a family group of green dragons who had been harrased for years by the theocracy, offereing them territory in the northeren part of the theocracy in exchange for aid in the war. The well organized mage troops with dragons and constructs for backup fall on the still disorganized theocracy and they push them back through the disputed territory and well into the clerical lands.

The Clerics finally begin to organize their troops, but only after they have retreated to a major paladin keep located between the magocracy boarder and the theocracy capitol city. They fight the mages to a standstill there.

The mages high councel with their differeing alignments and motives begin to bickering amongst themselves as to what to do next. Two mages actually leave the councel after a major dispute. One, a LG mage who was against the war from the start left after finding out that several of the other mages had brokered a deal with the dragons behind his back, while a second LE mage left after he was forbiden to raise troops as undead. The mage advance stalls at the paladin fortress.

Senceing weekness the clerics mount a major offencive to break the seige. After raiseing and training a large pesant army eager to avenge the deaths of their leaders they break the seige on the mage troops who's conflicting orders leave them with no choice but to retreat. In the mean time the clerics insert several agents into the magocracy population. They begin picking apart the propaganda sung by the bards and even gaining a few converts.

To combat waneing morale the mages begin dispenceing stockpiled magical weapons, and armour to fabricated hero's. Brave Sargent Bork who slew a paladin recives a +2 longsword for his effort for example. It works and the troops equiped with a fresh batch of magical equipment manage to turn the tide on the advanceing clerics.

Growing impatiant with the slow advance the green dragons leave the army and manage to once again shatter morale in the process. To add to the problems winter sets in and the mages have a difficult time getting supplies to the troops. The clerics keep their troops supplied with create food and drink spells when supply trains fail to get through. Of course they are still harrased by magical constructs, elementals, ect who do not require food or rest. Both sides dig in and little action happens untill spring.

By the time spring arrives the mage moral is positively bubbly. They have spent the past several months holed up in comferterable accomidations, curtousy of various fortification creating spells with earth elementals doing most of the manual labour. The food problems were solved once a convoy system was worked out with magic carpets carrying portable holes and bags of holding. The departure of the dragons is long forgotten. The Clerics on the other hand are still sleeping in temporary, mostly wooden fortifications. Desise breaks out in the early spring and only a disporportanate influx of clerics prevents a crippleing epidemic.

The mages assult again, fireball spells make short work of the wooden fortifications the clerics were useing and the clerical army is pushed back to the paladin keep again. This time however the mages had spent the previous winter working out a way to defeat just that. Almost a hundred low level apprentices take to the field and simotaniously cast from scrolls of transmute rock to mud that had been scribed over the previous winter. Upon the breach of the outer walls numerous fighter/mage shock troops are sent in with scrolls of Tensers Transormation avelable to them.

As the mages advance across the theocracy heartlands they begin to enter negotiations. After all, all they wanted was the peice of land between the two countries. As negotiations begin in ernest the two armies grind to a halt again. The mages begin constructing fortifications again and stockpileing magic items. This strongly encourages the clerics to find a peaceful resolution since they would have a difficult time holding off another attack with fresh magic items.

A peaceful resolution is eventually achived with the mages now holding the entire disputed zone and significant chunks of the theocratic soveren teritory. Disputes and other small wars continue for a huge length of time. The countries are never really at peace and the wars continue for years.
 

I've seen a couple attempts to prove mageocracy victory by clever storytelling. I'm not convinced though. (I'm particularly unconvinced by the fighter/mage parts of the story--it's an effective multiclass but an effectively built character doesn't have much more fighting power than the cleric (actually, a fighter/wizard will be a less effective fighter than a cleric of equal level unless very carefully constructed) and the levels of arcane advancement given up enable clerics to catch up in the direct damage department).

Perhaps more to the point, telling a story proves that you can tell a story (and in both cases, they were good stories) but it doesn't prove the point. A story could easily be told that ends up with the opposite result.

For instance:
The wizards' sneak attack slew the theocrat and suddenly plunged the lands into war. At least, that's how the bards tell the story now. At the time, even though nobody expected it, nobody was too surprised. The increasing border raids and constant rumors of coming conflict on both sides gave the war a sort of inevitable feeling to the populace. In fact, the theocracy didn't even seem to suffer too much from the loss of its patriarch. He was old, after all, and his death simply meant that the leading prelate stepped up to the office a few months earlier.

What the sneak attack did provide was a unifying experience for the Theocracy. For once, the Reform party and the Inquisition saw eye to eye: such an assault could not go unavenged. Volunteers streamed into the army swelling its ranks. But they were as yet untrained. In his wisdom, the new theocrat did not send them into the field immidiately but trained them while an elite group of paladins and knights fought a scorched earth campaign on the western border, delaying the wizards' advance.

The Dread Sorceror King knew that he had to strike quickly. His charmed armies were loyal, but the spells didn't work for that long and he knew it would be worse than useless to try to send undead against the disciplined and spiritually empowered armies of the theocrat. Undermining the theocrat's forces with lightning teleport raids behind enemy lines, he doggedly pushed his armies forward, animating the dead from both sides to patrol the rear and secure his supply lines.

Unfortunately, after a string of initial successes, the teleport raids became death traps. Scrying the result of one revealed the truth--His wizard teleported in with a cadre of fighters and returned to teleport the second batch. As soon as the wizard left, a pillar of flame erupted among his troops and a group of paladins thundered from out of the cover of the trees, cutting down the first group of soldiers before they realized what was happening to them. As the scene unfolded before the Dread Kings' eyes, his wizard returned with the rest of his raiding party. Surrounded, surprised, and outnumbered, the wizard died before the first arcane syllable passed his lips. Realizing that those who were beyond the sight of the gods (ie. can cast Mind Blank and therefore avoid having divinations reveal when and where the next raid will take place) were few and far between--even in his powerful mageocracy, the Dread Sorceror King scaled back his use of teleport raids.

Throughout the winter, large troop movements were impractical, but both sides raided each other and sought out allies. Historians later agreed that the Theocrat's recruitment of the Greenwood's elves proved vital to the war effort. Although the dominated forest ogres were an impressive addition to the Sorceror King's forces, the recruitment of the elves to their cause allowed the Theocracy to use the forest as a redoubt for their raiding parties and a safe passage--effectively doubling size of the front the Dread Sorceror king had to defend.

In the spring, the Theocracy's recruits met their first test and turned back the Sorceror-king's armies at the battle of Paladinkeep. Pressing forward, they made great gains and by the end of the summer, had pushed the sorceror-king's forces back past the original borders. Though the sorceror king deployed several massive constructs of stone and iron in the crucial battle of Ironbridge, they were met by a small host of the Theocrat's Celestial allies. The resulting titanic battle was watched in awe by soldiers on both sides who sometimes referred to this event as the spectators' truce. (In reality, it is said that the wizards and priests continued to fight at this time but the silenced arrows of the elven archer-priests enabled the theocracy to hold its own in the duel of spells).

Relentless in their pursuit of the old theocrats' murderers, the theocrats forces moved from one redoubt to the next, systematically levelling the towers of the mages. Although the cost was high, the attack on the symbol of their nation demonstrated to the Theocracy that complete and unequivocal victory was the only way they could return to lives of peace. In the final battle, the new theocrat himself took the field, and, though he gave up his life on the walls of the Sorceror-king's citadel, his honor guard slew the Dread Mage in the throne room and summoned elementals tore the citadel apart so thoroughly that no two stones were mortared together.

In the aftermath of the conflict, the Reform party's leader became Theocrat and created an institution for wizards under the theocracy's benevolent guidance. Potential wizards swore loyalty to the Temple first and foremost and forswore seeking or wielding political power. Thus the Arcane Order we know today was born. . . .
 

I still hold to the Magocracy

Time to join the storytelling.

The LN wizards' guild has for a long time claimed a dubious piece of land. The old king who perished had two twin sons, one a cleric and one a wizard, and a civil war has been brewing for some time. The wizard-prince cannot seem to negotiate the zeal of his brother, and the cleric-prince is unshakeable in his beliefs. War was inevitable.

The wizards' guild had of course been preparing for some time. The clerics, being good and hence condemning war, were caught on the back foot. A series of mage-assassinations removed many of the key supporters of the theocracy, but this caused the theocrats to unite. The wizards were also united- they assumed that total war was enough to unite their people without having to lose key leaders.

Shaken by the loss of their chiefs and their lack of preparation, the wizards seized the initiative and went full-flow on the offensive. Under cover of night and invisibility, they teleported in their ultra-elites to theocratic high command and wreaked vengeance on their foes. With Hide Life, they knew that they were practically untouchable, and with wands of summon monster blockaded any guards that could come to the rescue of their foes. The theocratic high command was almost destroyed in one evening.

Solving not to get caught again, the clerics split their forces up and communicated using sendings. However, their first counterattack was clumsy. Arcane tricksters and a few rogue spymasters agreed to act as intelligence in exchange for gold and magic items. The wizards set up an ambush when the clerical army marched up to their border fortress. The clerical armies were in skirmish formation having been warned of the danger of fireballs, but the wizards had anticipated this. Loosing their elite cavalry divisions onto each flank, combined with a frontal assault, the infantry of the theocracy had a harsh choice. Remaining in skirmish formation, they would lose the melee. But by forming into a solid formation, the circling wizards would rain destruction upon them.

The clerics groaned. Their troops were in disarray when the wizards had taken no risk. The elite cavalry horde were illusions, but the confused infantrymen were either fleeing or forming into a tight square as their martial training had taught them, before getting decimated. In despair, the clerics tried to convince the fleeing troops that the cavalry was illusory, but at that point the wizards' really troops broke forth, catching the fleeing skirmishers. Mass Hasted and fully hyped, the cavalry broke through the infantry line and into the clerics. The paladins were realised at this point, clashing directly with the wizards' cavalry. Through morale and stronger mounts they seemed to force the cavalry back but they could not hold back the barrage. A strategic retreat turned into a rout when a small squadron of invisible magi all targeted their magic missiles on the paladin-general and his senior commanders. Bereft of leadership, the paladin stuck to what they thought honourable and held their ground. Then the wizards' cavalry withdrew. The paladins seized their opportunity and fell right into the trap. Invisible pikemen skewered the paladins and the cream of the clerical force lay dead. It was a decisive victory.

Despite having expended much of their resources on the initial battle, the wizards followed up the attack with a terror campaign. Charismatic leaders were assassinated and fields were made to burn. Created Food and Water could not keep morale and the spartan living conditions made a high rate of defections, swayed by the sweet words of propagandist bards.

The tide began to turn and the cleric-prince realised that the blood of so many men was not worthwhile. Many of his council desired peace at any cost. In retrospect, the disputed piece of land was not that significant, he tried to justify to himself. But he knew that the symbolic loss was far greater.
 

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