Theocracy vs. Magocracy: who would win?

Crunch the numbers, and nothing but numbers: the Theocracy wins.

We all know that there's more to D&D than numbers, though (don't we?) Add in all variables, and the Magocracy wins.

It all boils down to the fact that the Theocracy must win while playing by the gods' rules.

The Magocracy simply wants to win; thus, they will fight dirty. Paladins will not fight dirty.

"Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." --Dark Helmet
 

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Tom Cashel: Absolutely right. The clerics being lawful good is probably a liability. They don't use sneak attacks, they don't use assassination, they don't use scorched earth tactics, they don't enslave capture foes, they don't torture captives etc. etc. etc.

One other point: Why does everyone assume that the clerics can raise dead willy-nilly? In a large battle up to 5,000 troops can be killed. Now, realistically, how many of them are the clerics going to raise. RD/Res is all very well when dealing with small adventuring parties, but when it comes to whole armies, that's different. And of course destroying/capturing the body restricts you to the very expensive True Res and there are ways of getting around this.

Regarding skirmish-tactics vs. bomber-magi: Not tactically feasible. If you deploy skirmish tactics, then the wizards' fighters will clean you up in no time. Any tabletop wargamer or war historian will tell you formed troops v skirmishers must mean the formed troops win (ceteris paribus). If they don't, they get blasted from the air. Clerical infantrymen have a lose-lose situation.
 

Just thought I'd point out that the vast majority of the troops in this conflict would be level 1 or 2 warriors and commoners. Adventurer classes would make up a very small portion of the populace and armed forces. The number of clerics and wizards of any power are going to be very small. The battle will be won and lost by the troops. The side that uses their small number of spellcasters to support their troops in the best way win the day. Healing spells for instance aren't really going to make that large of a difference simply because their won't be enough clerics to really help that great a number of troops. Things that are really going to turn the tide of battle are going to be low level area effect spells. A sorcerer with a fireball spell would do massive morale damage on the battle field. Web could be deadly if used right. And of course there will be a few higher levels people stalking the battle fields, an Insect Plague would wreck havoc on a battle field.

But ultimately I think it would fall to the magocracy, they have more battle turning spells at a lower level.

Think of the damage a single cloudkill spell would do, or something like control weather (which wizards get earlier than clerics).

The only caveat I'll add is that a very high level cleric could, with the Miracle spell, make a huge difference at a critical point in the war, but its not something that could be used over and over again.
 

One thing i'm suprised nobody has mentioned (or nobody that i noticed, as I only skimmed through most of the threads) is the proxy aspect. Why would a mageocracy be using mostly fighters/warriors? Why not construct an army of iron golems or other powerful constructs? True, they are very costly to make, but if you get enough wizards working on them, you could have a fairly effective force of shock-troops.

Just how much time does each side in the conflict have to build up their resources? That could be the deciding factor in such a war, though I personally lean towards the Magocracy. You can't beat a wizard for raw damage dealing spellpower, which will mean a lot in such a massive conflict. True, clerics will have an easier time bolstering the morale of their troops and convincing them to fight (anyone partaking in the war gains instant redemption and passage into heaven) but the mages won't have a difficult time of that either when you take the dominating enchantment spells into account. If you throw Bards into the equation, even better.
 

I don't think we'd see 5 soldiers for a mage in such conflicts, but hundreds of troops for each "special unit", be it Clerics or Mages. Mageocracy troops will be standard, run-of-the-mill soldiers, maybe bolstered by a few constructs. Theocracy troops would be simillar, but bolstered by enchantment spells designed specifically for war, like Aid, Battletide (FR) or Recitation (DotF). Add a couple of well-placed Warpriests (DotF), with their ability to rally troops, and push them past their mortal limits, and you have a terrific fighting force.

It all boils down to who can run a war with most efficiency, and I think the Theocracy would pull it off. Now, if we're talking guerilla/underhand tactics, its a whole different ballgame. As said before, Clerics and Paladins tend to play "by the rules". Mages have no such compulsion.
 
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I must say that I'm quite surprised that so far nearly every poster has assumed that a force assaulting clerics could use tightly packed formations and suffer no casualties from area effect spells.

Even low to mid level clerics have a number of area effect spells which could destroy tightly packed units quite effectively. Sound Burst, Calm Emotions, Darkness, and (especially) briar web would be devastating to tightly packed formations. At a more FR like power level (which you have if the Theocracy can use raise dead on common troops and the mageocracy can produce wands of fireballs in significant enough numbers to effect the conflict), Flame strike and Blade Barrier add to the devastation tightly packed Mageocracy units would suffer.

As for armies of Iron Golems, that presupposes a level of resources unequalled even in the Forgotten Realms. A large army of common troops could be hired, equipped, and fed for quite a while for the cost of one iron golem (which may be taken out by a Planar Ally spell, or a mass of archers with Greater Magic Weapon enhanced arrows) and that's ignoring the experience cost and time required to create such a monster.

There has been some suggestion that the clerics being good is a liability as well. (Lawful was mentioned before as an asset, so I'm assuming it's the good part of Lawful Good which is supposed to be a liability). However, it has a number of advantages as well. A reputation for treating captured prisoners humanely (rather than enslaving them) makes your enemy much more likely to surrender to you instead of fight to the death (reducing your losses). After all, I'm pretty sure more Germans surrendered to American troops in WWII than surrendered to Russian troops. Similarly, good forces tend to be more accepted as conquerers. When Hitler initially assaulted Russia, some hoped that he would be their liberator from Stalin. When his policies turned out to be evil, he faced fanatical resistance all along the Russian front. Information gained from torture may be unreliable, but it's completely unnecessary when you can Enthrall and Detect Thoughts. Furthermore, I see nothing in the description of Lawful Good (or any other kind of good) that prohibits ambushes (sneak attacks) or attacking the leadership of the enemy. (Sure, assassination might be off limits, but if you send an elite squad of Paladins behind enemy lines to assault their headquarters, that's a daring strike at the heart of the enemy, not an assassination attempt :) Plus, troops inspired by their personal desire for power and prominence (evil) don't tend to hang around when things start going bad. On the other hand, troops inspired by a desire to protect the innocent and protect their homeland (good and neutral) are a good deal less likely to give up in the face of bad circumstances. I'd say that being good is an asset to the theocracy rather than a liability. (Not that the wizards are necessarily evil).
 

First throw out everything you know about mass warfare from the middle ages. There is no advancing in formation through an open field without the protection of spells. Attacks will come under protection of massive super-enlarged battlefield sized fog clouds with magic circles against whatever cast and other battlefield enhancing magic. Forget fireball, the Wizards will be concentrating on casting group spells that don't even exist in the RPG game. Massive super-enhanced Shatter spells will sunder walls and fort doors if it can get past the SR that the opposing forces lay on it.

The entire spell selection would be completely different. If you figure that the spell selection we see is for characters you can also expect there to be a completely different one for battlefields. There won't be 15ft circles of magic circle there will be much bigger ones or shapeable ones. 100 elite troops advancing on the castle under protection of a giant anti-magic field would be quite effective.

I have a feeling the mages and clerics would be dedicated to supporting the troops. A invisible flying mage is nice until he attacks, then he's visible. How many 7th level wizards really exist for the improved invis? Even then it's only for a few minutes and with a battlefield sized fog cloud cast after the first fireball the results will be mediocre at best. How about a mass protection from elements? 9/10ths cover gives you improved evasion so they could advance behind shield walls, in high magic they could advance behind animated shield walls. A canopy of trees gives you cover, fog gives you concealment, etc.

Battles wouldn't be that bad. And a Theocracy wouldn't be just Clerics. They'd both have a mix of the classes. A Theocracy would have high level and lots of low level clerics with probably a few mage volunteers. Same with the Magocracy having a few Clerics of Boccob, or whatever other diety would enjoy that power of confronting the other side. As far as LG being a hinderance it also has benefits. The diety is far more likely to send along a platoon of Hound Archons to assist and more then likely will provide other benefits too. Beneficial weather, decent growing season, miracles (not the spell), would all be provided by a diety who is worshipped by the whole nation.
 

Hmm actually does remind me of the Dragon King supplement now. Overly slanted in favor of the campaign world rulers, but very ... different spells from what most would use.

Some fair points about majority of troops being normal troops. The predominance either way could cause big slants. Assuming that the level of magical forces are roughly equivilant, I'd still have to lean towards the mage aspect (5th level mages can have fun with Invis Sphere). Clerics would be able to 'secure' areas without being there a tad bit more easily (Glyphs of Warding), although mages have much greater ease with outright bypassing stopgates or such (Teleport, Dimensional Door). Which does bring another issue where the mages could become troublesome Teleportation Circle... Nice logistical benefit you can have from them... Of course I'm not sure if it'd just be more profitable to Time Stop and rain down Meteor Swarms at that point :P.

Just don't cast detect magic during the fight :P, you'll go blind.
 

also..why would the Magocracy utilise Charm Spells and other "Morale" boosting spells..They wouldn't need to , because they have the Bards on their side, and we all know that Propaganda is as powerful a force in unifying a country as religion is. If the Magocracy had a suitably cluey PR Campaign Manager then they would have as high a Morale as the Theocracy.

Also the other factor really comes down to the skill of the people directing the war. In the past we have seen many armies that are small (considerably) defeat larger armies due to clever tactics or even strategies. Also the army that is better at logistics will frequently have the upper hand.. Just look at the Roman Empire.. The Romans weren't bigger, stronger, faster, better swordsmen, better cavalry, than their enemies...no they were just really good at logistics and effective tactics (there is more to it than that..but heh, it's a little example)

So..the way I see it, overall both sides are fairly equal in power, so depending on the strategies adopted by both sides, either one will win..or worse still neither will win and they will go to a stalemate.
 

To be fair, if we're talking about a cleric based army vs arcane based army, A few things would be unique to both armies

Cleric side only:
Clerics OR Druids
Paladins (If LG) OR Rangers OR Monks
Cleric based Prcs

Arcane side only:
Wizards
Sorcerers
Bards
Arcane Archers
Liches
Most constructs

Both sides:
Fighters
Rogues
Barbarians
Fighter/rogue based Prcs
Summoned monsters
Dragons
Undead (if alignment != good)
 

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