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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ClaytonCross" data-source="post: 8012732" data-attributes="member: 6880599">Your saying we disagree but I am not sure we actually do. 1. The first turn of an of an entire battle can change the out come. I do agree the cyclical nature means its limited to the first round, but depending on who your fighting and how much you pull of there might not be a second round for many enemies or they will be playing defense survival the rest of the time do to a well played first round. Does that always happen? No. I agree with "Can that first turn be important, sure".2. As far as far as "worth such a hefty investment?" goes I think builds the way we are doing here is just over kill in general. I don't think we disagree here either. I do think your missing that the real value of theory crafting is actually being aware of options. This thread has already added a bunch to my list that I was not aware of. I am not recommending building a characters with investment into initiative this high. However, because who goes first on the first round can greatly effect the tone and direction of the rest of the match, being aware of your options and considering them is not a bad idea. Particularly with casters. If I was planning to make a  Crowd control wizard for example, before now would not have even considered the War Magic subclass. While I am unlikely to play a yuan-ti-pureblood as they simply don't interest me, knowing that they are immune to poison and that they can were Scorpion Armor as a none metal plate, makes me consider them as a possibility for a strength based druid. I have also been reminded that Bards can use bardic inspiration on themselves to get a jump on some of there better spells. I am very aware how often I have wanted to cast web or fire ball on group of enemies only to have them spread out and mix with the party making my AoE spell a one or two target spell instead of a five or six because of not wanting to cause pain to may allies specifically because D&D is a party based game. Going in initiative order before enemies and allies alike lets me hold action and pick the moment instead of losing by a bad dice roll. Maybe it comes back but maybe it doesn't. A little investment can go along way, if know about them to begin with.</blockquote>

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