D&D 5E Theory Crafting fun: Max initiative?

[ClaytonCross]

For the sake of some small note of realism, I am going to ignore the max 30 stats from the DMG. I am also avoiding Artifact items such as The Sword of Kas. If you want to do other wise that is fine. This is just what I want to do.

yuan-ti-pureblood "Your Charisma score increases by 2, and your Intelligence score increases by 1." and "You are immune to poison damage and the poisoned condition."
Base stats: Str9 Dex14 Con8 Int 14 (13 +1 Race) Wiz14 Cha 16 (+2 race)
level 3 Fighter Champion - Remarkable Athlete: "add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn’t already use your proficiency bonus." +3
level 8 Fighter Champion - (+ 3 Ability score increase) Dexterity 18 (+ two Ability score increase) = +4 (Basic Dexterity)
level 3 Rogue Swashbuckler - Rakish Audacity: "You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Charisma modifier."
level 4 Rogue Swashbuckler (+ 1 Ability score increase) Charisma 18 (+ two Ability score increase) = +4 (Charisma)
level 3 Gloom Stalker Ranger - Dread Ambusher: "At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush. You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier."
level 4 Gloom Stalker Ranger ( +1 ASI) Wisdom 16 (+ one Ability score increase) = +3 (Wisdom)
level 2 Wizard (War mage: Tactical wit -or- Chronurgist:Temporal Awareness): You can add your Intelligence modifier to your initiative rolls.
level 4 Wizard (War mage / Chronurgist, + one Ability score increase) Intelligence 16 (+ one Ability score increase) = +3 (Intelligence)
ASI: Alert feat = +5 (Third ASI from Fighter)
Luckstone = +1
Ioun Stone of Mastery = +1
Scorpion Armor "+5 bonus to initiative as long as you aren’t incapacitated " The curse does poison damage but as a Yuan-ti-pureblood your immune to it. = +5
Sentinel shield (no attunement required) = Effective +5 from advantage
Static max initiative Bonus: +29, Effective/Temporary +34

Sentinel shield is the cheapest option for advantage just for note, other options are: Weapon of warning / level 7 Barbarian: Feral Instinct / level 1 Twilight Cleric lvl 1: Vigilant Blessing all give advantage but I choose the static bonus for magic items and used up all 20 levels. I am thinking I might still be able to get it through DM inspiration at the very least. I saw someone say you could use the help action, which might technically be true but I don't think many GMs would allow it. Possibly lvl 2 spell Enhance Ability Cat's Grace cast by ally since it lasts or and hour.

Can anyone improve on this? Did I miss something big?

Edit: Corrected math, added Sentinel Shield for advantage, removed Oath of the Watcher since it is Unearthed Arcana, and removed Gunslinger as critical role content. I think is a fair criticism the they would not be allowed at most tables. I added Bard to cover the missing character levels utilizing Jack of all trades and Bardic inspiration reducing the static bonus from 30 to 25 but resulting in a higher temporary cap.

level 7 Oath of the Watchers (Unearthed Arcana, Paladin +1ASI) - "you each gain a bonus to initiative equal to your Charisma modifier"

level 7 Gunslinger (Critical Role content, Fighter +2 ASI) - Quickdraw: "When you reach 7th level, you add your proficiency bonus to your initiative." assuming total character level of 20 = +6
level 8 Gunslinger (Fighter +1 ASI)

Edit: Bard options

level 2 Bard (Jack of all Trades +1/2 your proficiency bonus as a level 20 character) = +3
level 14 Lore Bard -Peerless Skill
Starting at 14th level, when you make an ability check, you can expend one use of Bardic Inspiration. Roll a Bardic Inspiration die and add the number rolled to your ability check. You can choose to do so after you roll the die for the ability check, but before the DM tells you whether you succeed or fail.

Edit: Rebuilt with Champion fighter as base class for an additional ASI and Rogue Swashbuckler to add Charisma for changing the base max from +25 to +30 before advantage

 

[DND_Reborn]

I don't know where Gunslinger is from, I guess some crazy "this-ain't-your-daddy's-D&D" book?

Anyway, I think the best I did was about +26 without magic items or spells. I'll have to see if I can dig up the build. You are also using UA material, which I wouldn't consider valid in the broader case, but as you say it is "just what I want to do" so no worries.

Either way, impressive but generally (in party play) initiative rarely matters much IMX.

 

[bedir than]

I would guess that RAI is that different forms of attribute stacking wouldn't actually stack. Just like on AC for a Barb/Monk they don't include both CON and WIS

 

[Mistwell]

Sentinel shield for advantage to initiative?

 

[DND_Reborn]

For the sake of some small note of realism, I am going to ignore the max 30 stats from the DMG. I am also avoiding Artifact items such as The Sword of Kas. If you want to do other wise that is fine. This is just what I want to do.

yuan-ti-pureblood "Your Charisma score increases by 2, and your Intelligence score increases by 1." and "You are immune to poison damage and the poisoned condition."
Base stats: Str9 Dex14 Con8 Int 14 (13 +1 Race) Wiz14 Cha 14 (+2 race)
level 7 Gunslinger (Fighter +2 ASI) - Quickdraw: "When you reach 7th level, you add your proficiency bonus to your initiative." assuming total character level of 20 = +6
level 8 Gunslinger (Fighter +1 ASI)
Dexterity 16 (+ one Ability score increase) = +4
level 3 Gloom Stalker Ranger - Dread Ambusher: "At 3rd level, you master the art of the ambush. You can give yourself a bonus to your initiative rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier."
Wisdom 16 (+ one Ability score increase) = +4
level 2 Wizard (War mage - Tactical wit -or- Chronurgist - Temporal Awareness): You can add your Intelligence modifier to your initiative rolls.
Intelligence 16 (+ one Ability score increase) = +4
level 7 Oath of the Watchers (Unearthed Arcana, Paladin +1ASI) - "you each gain a bonus to initiative equal to your Charisma modifier"
Charisma 16 = +4
Alert feat = +5
Luckstone +1
Ioun Stone of Mastery +1
Scorpion Armor "+5 bonus to initiative as long as you aren’t incapacitated " The curse does poison damage but as a Yuan-ti-pureblood your immune to it. = +5
Static max initiative Bonus: +34

Weapon of warning / level 7 Barbarian: Feral Instinct / level 1 Twilight Cleric lvl 1: Vigilant Blessing all give advantage but I choose the static bonus for magic items and used up all 20 levels. I am thinking I might still be able to get it through DM inspiration at the very least. I saw someone say you could use the help action, which might technically be true but I don't think many GMs would allow it. Possibly lvl 2 spell Enhance Ability Cat's Grace cast by ally since it lasts or and hour.
Temporary max initiative Bonus: effective +39

Can anyone improve on this? Did I miss something big?

Ok, I think you have some mistakes maybe? It looks like you are Fighter 8 (Gunslinger)/ Ranger 3 (Gloom Stalker)/ Wizard 2 (War Magic)/ Paladin 7 (Watcher??? some UA so no clue...). That gives you 4 feats (Fighter 4/6/8 and Paladin 4)

Anyway, you have a lot of 16 = +4, which it is only +3... but you have CHA 16 = +4 like you meant to give it an ASI for 18 = +4, but otherwise it would only be +3. As is you have 3 ASI (DEX/ WIS/ INT) & Alert. So, no ASI for CHA.

It seems like you would be better off with Rogue (Swashbuckler) 4 for CHA to Initiative (instead of the Paladin UA) Then take the 3 extra levels and add them to Ranger and Wizard to make them 4 and 4 and get two more feats for more ASIs.

Fighter 8/ Ranger 4/ Wizard 4/ Rogue 4 then you would have feats at Fighter 4/6/8 and 3 more for the other classes at 4th level each.

So, if I am correct:

Your starting scores are: 9 / 14 / 8 / 14 / 14 / 16

Fighter 4: ASI DEX 14 => 16
Fighter 6: ASI DEX 16 => 18
Fighter 7: add proficiency bonus (+6 @ 20th)
Fighter 8: ASI DEX 18 => 20
Wizard 2: add INT to initiative
Wizard 4: ASI INT 14 => 16
Ranger 3: add WIS to initiative
Ranger 4: ASI WIS 14 = > 16
Rogue 3: add CHA to initiative
Rogue 4: Alert +5

Final scores are:
9 / 20 / 8 / 16 / 16/ 16

So, +5 (DEX) +3 (INT) +3 (WIS) +3 (CHA) + 5 (Alert) + 6 (Prof Bonus) = +25 (with no magic)

You seem to be adding +4 for INT/WIS/CHA each? Am I missing something?

 

[ClaytonCross]

Ok, I think you have some mistakes maybe? It looks like you are Fighter 8 (Gunslinger)/ Ranger 3 (Gloom Stalker)/ Wizard 2 (War Magic)/ Paladin 7 (Watcher??? some UA so no clue...). That gives you 4 feats (Fighter 4/6/8 and Paladin 4)

Anyway, you have a lot of 16 = +4, which it is only +3... but you have CHA 16 = +4 like you meant to give it an ASI for 18 = +4, but otherwise it would only be +3. As is you have 3 ASI (DEX/ WIS/ INT) & Alert. So, no ASI for CHA.

It seems like you would be better off with Rogue (Swashbuckler) 4 for CHA to Initiative (instead of the Paladin UA) Then take the 3 extra levels and add them to Ranger and Wizard to make them 4 and 4 and get two more feats for more ASIs.

Fighter 8/ Ranger 4/ Wizard 4/ Rogue 4 then you would have feats at Fighter 4/6/8 and 3 more for the other classes at 4th level each.

So, if I am correct:

Your starting scores are: 9 / 14 / 8 / 14 / 14 / 16

Fighter 4: ASI DEX 14 => 16
Fighter 6: ASI DEX 16 => 18
Fighter 7: add proficiency bonus (+6 @ 20th)
Fighter 8: ASI DEX 18 => 20
Wizard 2: add INT to initiative
Wizard 4: ASI INT 14 => 16
Ranger 3: add WIS to initiative
Ranger 4: ASI WIS 14 = > 16
Rogue 3: add CHA to initiative
Rogue 4: Alert +5

Final scores are:
9 / 20 / 8 / 16 / 16/ 16

So, +5 (DEX) +3 (INT) +3 (WIS) +3 (CHA) + 5 (Alert) + 6 (Prof Bonus) = +25 (with no magic)

You seem to be adding +4 for INT/WIS/CHA each? Am I missing something?

You are correct. Fixed. Thank you.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Sentinel shield for advantage to initiative?

Good catch, I added it to the list of ways to get advantage at the bottom.

Edit, I did not realize Sentinel Shield does not require attunement so that is added.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I would guess that RAI is that different forms of attribute stacking wouldn't actually stack. Just like on AC for a Barb/Monk they don't include both CON and WIS

That's a guess because nothing RAW reflects that as RAI. I understand the opinion, but I generally hold to RAW and let Wizards clarify in Errata, Sage advice, or even a D&D beyond video. If I can not confirm their intent somewhere, that is a house rule and I don't surprise my player as GM nor do I appreciate being surprised by GM how create house rule then call them default RAI without any proof to justify it. For this exercise I will not be using house rules or initiative could be "I go first in every battle" and it has the potential to get very silly. GM or player.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I don't know where Gunslinger is from, I guess some crazy "this-ain't-your-daddy's-D&D" book?

Anyway, I think the best I did was about +26 without magic items or spells. I'll have to see if I can dig up the build. You are also using UA material, which I wouldn't consider valid in the broader case, but as you say it is "just what I want to do" so no worries.

Either way, impressive but generally (in party play) initiative rarely matters much IMX.

The Gunslnger is critical role content like the blood hunter. That is a fair point so I dropped it. Initiative can and does matter in party play under two common conditions. 1. Weak enemies that can be eliminated before they get a chance to attack are present in the battle. 2. Strategic spell/abilities such as AoE, buff, and Crowd control need to be deployed before enemies move and mix with players. Some good examples of #2: Fireball can be supper effective when you use it on an enemy you just encountered but once they mix with your party you could kill your own team. Web used to limit the number of enemies who can get to you and/or make a group of them easier to kill without doing the same to your party. Hold person automatic melee criticals on a big boss can be huge. Using Haste and rage before enemies means a great reduction of damage. Being able to move into their numbers means restricting enemy casters fireballs and CC or risking their allies after you get your shot in.

It is generally a bigger deal for casters to go first, so the new edit with mostly bard makes more since in that way.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The Gunslnger is critical role content like the blood hunter. That is a fair point so I dropped it. Initiative can and does matter in party play under two common conditions. 1. Weak enemies that can be eliminated before they get a chance to attack are present in the battle. 2. Strategic spell/abilities such as AoE, buff, and Crowd control need to be deployed before enemies move and mix with players. Some good examples of #2: Fireball can be supper effective when you use it on an enemy you just encountered but once they mix with your party you could kill your own team. Web used to limit the number of enemies who can get to you and/or make a group of them easier to kill without doing the same to your party. Hold person automatic melee criticals on a big boss can be huge. Using Haste and rage before enemies means a great reduction of damage. Being able to move into their numbers means restricting enemy casters fireballs and CC or risking their allies after you get your shot in.

It is generally a bigger deal for casters to go first, so the new edit with mostly bard makes more since in that way.

Nice. I like the bard focused build. With Wizard and Ranger you have a total caster level of 18, so great slots available as well!

Here is a quick one:

Half-Elf Fighter (Champion) 8/ Bard (Lore) 4/ Rogue (Swashbuckler) 4/ Wizard (War Magic) 4

8 / 16 (15+1) / 10 / 16 (15+1) / 8 / 16 (14+2)

Bard 2: ADD 1/2 Prof Bonus to INITIATIVE
Bard 4: ASI Alert
Wizard 2: ADDS INT TO INITIATIVE
Wizard 4: ASI INT +2
Rogue 3: ADDS CHA TO INITIATIVE
Rogue 4: ASI CHA +2
Fighter 4: ASI DEX +2
Fighter 6: ASI DEX +2
Fighter 7: ADD 1/2 Prof Bonus to INITIATIVE
Fighter 8: ASI INT +2

8 / 20 / 10 / 20 / 8 / 18

+5 (Alert) +5 (DEX) + 5 (INT) +4 (CHA) + 6 (Jack of All Trades/ Remarkable Athlete) = +25 (again, no magic)

Some people might argue about combining Jack of All Trades and Remarkable Athlete, but since neither adds "your proficiency bonus" (they only add half) I think it would be okay at most tables. Since this only uses the PHB and XGtE, most tables have both books as well. If you actually start with Wizard, you get proficiency in WIS saves, which will help offset the low WIS modifier.

I am 90% certain I had a build that did get to +26... but can't think of it.

I am curious to see if it can be higher. You could do that same thing with the Yuan-Ti Pureblood, etc. and get another +7 from Items, +5 for Sentinel Shield, etc.