D&D 5E Theory Crafting fun: Max initiative?

[DND_Reborn]

The Gunslnger is critical role content like the blood hunter. That is a fair point so I dropped it. Initiative can and does matter in party play under two common conditions. 1. Weak enemies that can be eliminated before they get a chance to attack are present in the battle. 2. Strategic spell/abilities such as AoE, buff, and Crowd control need to be deployed before enemies move and mix with players. Some good examples of #2: Fireball can be supper effective when you use it on an enemy you just encountered but once they mix with your party you could kill your own team. Web used to limit the number of enemies who can get to you and/or make a group of them easier to kill without doing the same to your party. Hold person automatic melee criticals on a big boss can be huge. Using Haste and rage before enemies means a great reduction of damage. Being able to move into their numbers means restricting enemy casters fireballs and CC or risking their allies after you get your shot in.

It is generally a bigger deal for casters to go first, so the new edit with mostly bard makes more since in that way.

I respectfully have to disagree. Given the cyclical nature of Initiative in 5E, you are only missing out on the first turn if you lose Initiative. Can that first turn be important, sure..., but is it worth such a hefty investment? No, not IMO, that is all I am saying really.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I respectfully have to disagree. Given the cyclical nature of Initiative in 5E, you are only missing out on the first turn if you lose Initiative. Can that first turn be important, sure..., but is it worth such a hefty investment? No, not IMO, that is all I am saying really.

Your saying we disagree but I am not sure we actually do.

1. The first turn of an of an entire battle can change the out come. I do agree the cyclical nature means its limited to the first round, but depending on who your fighting and how much you pull of there might not be a second round for many enemies or they will be playing defense survival the rest of the time do to a well played first round. Does that always happen? No. I agree with "Can that first turn be important, sure".

2. As far as far as "worth such a hefty investment?" goes I think builds the way we are doing here is just over kill in general. I don't think we disagree here either. I do think your missing that the real value of theory crafting is actually being aware of options. This thread has already added a bunch to my list that I was not aware of. I am not recommending building a characters with investment into initiative this high. However, because who goes first on the first round can greatly effect the tone and direction of the rest of the match, being aware of your options and considering them is not a bad idea. Particularly with casters.

If I was planning to make a Crowd control wizard for example, before now would not have even considered the War Magic subclass. While I am unlikely to play a yuan-ti-pureblood as they simply don't interest me, knowing that they are immune to poison and that they can were Scorpion Armor as a none metal plate, makes me consider them as a possibility for a strength based druid. I have also been reminded that Bards can use bardic inspiration on themselves to get a jump on some of there better spells. I am very aware how often I have wanted to cast web or fire ball on group of enemies only to have them spread out and mix with the party making my AoE spell a one or two target spell instead of a five or six because of not wanting to cause pain to may allies specifically because D&D is a party based game. Going in initiative order before enemies and allies alike lets me hold action and pick the moment instead of losing by a bad dice roll. Maybe it comes back but maybe it doesn't. A little investment can go along way, if know about them to begin with.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Your saying we disagree but I am not sure we actually do.

1. The first turn of an of an entire battle can change the out come. I do agree the cyclical nature means its limited to the first round, but depending on who your fighting and how much you pull of there might not be a second round for many enemies or they will be playing defense survival the rest of the time do to a well played first round. Does that always happen? No. I agree with "Can that first turn be important, sure".

2. As far as far as "worth such a hefty investment?" goes I think builds the way we are doing here is just over kill in general. I don't think we disagree here either. I do think your missing that the real value of theory crafting is actually being aware of options. This thread has already added a bunch to my list that I was not aware of. I am not recommending building a characters with investment into initiative this high. However, because who goes first on the first round can greatly effect the tone and direction of the rest of the match, being aware of your options and considering them is not a bad idea. Particularly with casters.

If I was planning to make a Crowd control wizard for example, before now would not have even considered the War Magic subclass. While I am unlikely to play a yuan-ti-pureblood as they simply don't interest me, knowing that they are immune to poison and that they can were Scorpion Armor as a none metal plate, makes me consider them as a possibility for a strength based druid. I have also been reminded that Bards can use bardic inspiration on themselves to get a jump on some of there better spells. I am very aware how often I have wanted to cast web or fire ball on group of enemies only to have them spread out and mix with the party making my AoE spell a one or two target spell instead of a five or six because of not wanting to cause pain to may allies specifically because D&D is a party based game. Going in initiative order before enemies and allies alike lets me hold action and pick the moment instead of losing by a bad dice roll. Maybe it comes back but maybe it doesn't. A little investment can go along way, if know about them to begin with.

Ok, I see where you are coming from. A simple, but effective initiative build can drastically increase the odds of acting first without a necessarily heavy investment of course. One of my characters is a Rogue (Scout)/ Wizard (War Magic). With just DEX and INT she gets +7 to Initiative and often acts before the enemy. I never bothered with Alert because it would be overkill since few enemies ever have more than a +3 or +4 to the initiative, and most are 0 or +1.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Looked at from a different perspective......getting a surprise round is probably even better than having a crazy high initiative score. I'd say a build that gives you surprise AND has a decent init is better than a straight high initi score.

That being said, I do understand this is more an exercise in seeing how far you can stretch the bounded accuracy.

 

[S'mon]

For the sake of some small note of realism, I am going to ignore the max 30 stats from the DMG.

In that case, use DEX ASI Epic Boons from the DMG for infinite INIT.

This is why attributes cap at +10 and Prof at +9; they don't want modifiers overwhelming the d20 roll. Eg with STR or DEX, an unlimited damage boost is ok in the system but an unlimited to-hit bonus is not. If you're going to de-cap attributes I'd recommend having the d20 roll modifier cap at +10 but other elements such as extra damage can be uncapped, so eg STR 50 would be +10 to hit/+20 damage.

 

[NotAYakk]

Bardic Inspiration cannot be given to yourself.

And adding half proficiency twice doesn't work; they both say "if you don't add proficiency already". It has been clarified that this is adding any multiple of proficiency.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Bardic Inspiration cannot be given to yourself.

And adding half proficiency twice doesn't work; they both say "if you don't add proficiency already". It has been clarified that this is adding any multiple of proficiency.

Good catch! I forgot about that because the only bard I play is Swords, and I use the Bardic Inspiration for my flourishes.

Since it isn't a static bonus, I wouldn't have could it anyway and in the OP he has it an effective bonus anyway.

 

[ClaytonCross]

In that case, use DEX ASI Epic Boons from the DMG for infinite INIT.

This is why attributes cap at +10 and Prof at +9; they don't want modifiers overwhelming the d20 roll. Eg with STR or DEX, an unlimited damage boost is ok in the system but an unlimited to-hit bonus is not. If you're going to de-cap attributes I'd recommend having the d20 roll modifier cap at +10 but other elements such as extra damage can be uncapped, so eg STR 50 would be +10 to hit/+20 damage.

What I meant was I am assuming a max of 20 stat. The tomes and epic boons are rare and uninteresting as an answer in my opinion because of what you just said.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Bardic Inspiration cannot be given to yourself.

And adding half proficiency twice doesn't work; they both say "if you don't add proficiency already". It has been clarified that this is adding any multiple of proficiency.

Ah, for got only level 14 Lore Bards can cast inspiration on them selves. I fixed that and added a note for lore bards since I was only using 12 levels.

Another good note, I think sticking with Bard then makes since it is a level lower to pick up and on a full spell caster class.