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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5477121" data-attributes="member: 2011">I believe that you are mistaken here.I doubt any 1st level Rangers can sustain a near average of 20 damage at first level with At Will powers.Taking Weapon Proficiency Greatbow, that would be 2D12+1D6 with Twin Strike for 16.5 average damage IF both attacks hit. If one misses, that's 10 average damage.Course, a Greatbow is +2 instead of +3, it doesn't include Weapon Finesse for damage, and it doesn't get Combat Advantage nearly as often (kind of rare at first level).If you have two PCs, one ranged Ranger and one ranged Thief with 20 Dex, the Ranger is:+5 to hit Dex, +2 to hit Greatbow, no bonuses to damage, 2D12+D6 max = 16.5 damageThe Thief is:+5 to hit Dex, +3 to hit Shortsword, +2 bonus Weapon Finesse, Backstabber Feat D8 sneak attack, 1D6+2D8+5+2 = 19.5 damage (20.06 average damage with criticals on sucessful hits)One is 3 dice. One is 3 slightly lower dice plus 7.And, DPR is something else. Against a same level foe (i.e. AC 15, Level + 14)Ranger: +7 to hit, hits 65% of time, DPR 12.07125Thief: +11 to hit, hits 85% of the time, DPR 17.05Ranger with Expertise instead of Greatbow: DPR 11.22125Not even close. The Thief averages ~40% more damage per round.Melee Rangers don't fare any better because damage is better than bonuses to hit at first level.And Ranger first level Encounter powers are damage-wise still less compared to the Thief's normal every round At Will. They max at 2W, so they do 2D12+D6+5 damage, but hit less often. So, DPR 15.875. A slightly higher average damage of 21.5, but it hits less often.Throw in Backstab and most Ranger Encounter powers look weak.The Ranger has to use his 3W Daily power to average more damage than the Thief. 20.375 vs. 17.05 (slightly more for the Ranger on a half damage miss power).The bottom line is that although a Ranger does have some slight additional riders with their Encounter and Daily powers, Thieves wipe out foes a lot quicker. There is no doubt that the same low level party fighting the same encounters, one with the Thief, one with the Ranger, will result in using fewer resources over an averaging encounter day with the Thief than with the Ranger.And even though the Thief does not get the Ranger Daily power at low level, the fact that he helps save other PC resources by killing foes faster means that some other PCs probably have Daily powers and Action Points left over in late in the day Encounters to easily make up for the fact that the low level Thief is shy a single Daily power.No contest. The low level Thief kills one foe per 2 rounds. The low level Ranger kills one foe per 3 rounds. The Thief lowers a 6 round encounter down to 5 rounds most encounters compared to the Ranger.</blockquote>

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