Thief seems overpowered to this new/old DM

[DJINNIMAN]

Hello all. I just recently got back into playing D&D, which I have not really done beyond a starter kit adventure here and there for almost 20 years. Playing the Castle Ravenloft board game with a small group of friends and my two sons led to an impulse purchase of the Red Box and now it has just snowballed into an all out campaign.

We've played for only four sessions, and the players are midway through second level, going through the Reavers of Harkenwold adventure from the DM Kit. Learning all the new rules and such, with the focus on tactical combat, has been a real change for me, though all the players are new to D&D entirely. Overall, things have gone quite well, but we do have what appears to be a problem.

The essentials build thief seems ridiculously overpowered.

THe rest of the party includes a shaman, knight, cavalier, and mage, but the thief is hands down the MVP of every combat. The combination of strong melee damage and rule-breaking mobility powers allows him to dance around the map dealing out death like a whirling dervish. As this player joined us starting in the second session, the difference is really striking, if you'll pardon the pun. Combats are faster, sure, but I fear my players will feel weak next to the thief.

I know that finding ways for the other players to excel is one way to counteract this, but I just wanted to know if this is a common problem. My players used the character builder for creation, and I'm wondering if they just chose weak powers, perhaps. Would it be worthwhile to have them use only Essentials powers, as I have read that they are generally stronger than some older ones?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm having an amazing time playing after all these years and it has been a great experience for everyone so far. I don't want to mess it up by allowing one PC to dominate the others.

 

[the Jester]

What you are seeing is a striker in action. Nobody else is a striker; nobody else will have the same level of focused fire reliable high damage.

It should be fine.

 

[Aulirophile]

eStrikers are sort of out-of-the-box optimized. What you're seeing is a striker near the top tier of standard optimization, by default. You'd have the same thing if he was playing a Slayer, for instance.

Optimized strikers will regularly do at least double the damage of any other role. If it seems like he is doing a ton of damage, don't worry about it. Perfectly normal.

If you're worried the rest of the group is getting overshadowed and is having less fun, figure out what their character is good at. The Mage should be able to deal with mass minions really well. That'd be fun for him. Violate the Defender's Marks so they get extra out of turn attacks and feel useful, etc.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I agree with Aurophile:

Just ignore marks/defender auras and go for the thief. This achieves two things:

1. The thief will start beeing more careful, as he is very fragile.
2. As already said: the knight and the cavallier will do more damage and they may be able to tell the thief, how they saved his life by shield blocking or taking his damage.

 

[wedgeski]

Welcome to the board! Glad to hear the sweet sound of another DM returning to the game. You certainly sound like you know your stuff.

I DM for a 4E Rogue and what that guy can achieve is ridiculous... and extraordinarily fun. He's all over the battlemat, hopelessly outwitting the bad guys and dishing out absurd damage. And to be honest, that's just the way it should be. Don't go out of the way to curb this behaviour, just give him pause every now and then with a few mobility restrictions and the odd bad guy who can get as good a position on him as he can on them.

Other than that you seem more than aware of what needs to be done, and the other posters have given sound advice.

 

[OnlineDM]

Also, keep in mind that the Thief doesn't have daily powers, which means that it has increased effectiveness in every round of combat to make up for it. The Knight (and Cavalier, if I remember correctly) is in the same boat, but it's not as obvious because the Knight's job isn't to deal as much damage. In combats where your Mage and Shaman are firing off daily powers, they should be outshining the Thief. In combats where daily powers are not used, the Thief will be outshining the others. It should more or less even out.

But keep in mind that no other class is ever going to match your striker (Thief) when it comes to dishing out damage, as the rest of the folks here have said. His job is to kill things; other characters' jobs are to control things, lock them down or take care of allies.

All that said, I agree that the Thief is crazy-powerful. I've seen a few in action, and yes, they're amazing. If the rest of the party isn't optimized, it's probably true that the Thief is objectively stronger than they are, which I agree stinks (see here for my thoughts on the matter).

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Within the strict confines of Essentials, i.e. no feats or powers outside of the HotF* books, the Thief is easier to optimise than the Knight, Cavalier or Mage. (Shamans are just under-supported, period.) If the latter three were not allowed to go outside Essentials, that could be part of the problem.

But assuming that all of the characters are equally optimised, the question you have to ask is "How do the players feel about it?" If they don't mind, you have no problem. If what they object to is that they feel their own contributions (above and beyond damage) were either not relevant (i.e. I gave the Thief a free shift but he didn't use it to move) or not significant (I gave the Thief a bonus to hit but he would have hit anyway), that's very different from a simple objection to the damage itself.

 

[Robtheman]

I'd like to offer another perspective here.

The ability to optimize the entire party to create a unified fighting force is one of the fun things about 4e. This is coming from a player and GM with 6 different campaigns over the past year.

4e is remarkable partly because you _can_ change your character so much after initial creation. It is a pressure relief value for players and GMs alike as they find the balance between the GMs style of running encounters and how the players like to demolish them.

One thing I have noticed is that players begin to choose feats or retrain powers/feats to match the strengths of their companions. From a recreationist view point this makes a lot of sense. As these ragtag heroes explore the world together they learn from each other and begin to fight better as a group.

The party in the game I currently run has really hit it's stride over the past month. Part of this was new players becoming comfortable with with the mechanics. Part of it was getting the right mix of players at the table. However a _big_ part was people tailoring their builds a bit to match their companions. I feels right to me. They didn't walk in as ready-made heroes, despite the inherent strength of level 1 characters in 4e. They struggled to find themselves in combat and in character.

I am definitely not discounting the advice in previous posts, however I would encourage some patience, and some occasional advice, as your players figure out how to mesh as a party. They may love the damage the striker deals. I know that when the Assassin in took down 80% of the elite bosses hps in a surprise round + the first turn, I groaned and the rest of the players cheered. When the Assassin got knocked on his ass the next turn, both leaders were jumping to aid him.

If I were in your shoes, I'd research on the other classes in the party. Find out why they aren't as strong. Some powers and feats in 4e can be pretty lame in practice, yet sound awesome on paper. Others may just not work that well with the strengths of the rest of the party. If someone begins to express dissatisfaction with their character you can be ready to coach them a bit on ideas for tuning the characters power selections of feats. A little tweak here or there can really make a big difference. I'm not suggesting you make everyone optimize their character, mind you. However, you can become a resource when appropriate.

 

[WizarDru]

1. The thief will start beeing more careful, as he is very fragile.
2. As already said: the knight and the cavallier will do more damage and they may be able to tell the thief, how they saved his life by shield blocking or taking his damage.

This matches my experience. Remember that a striker is a Glass Hammer. He can hit very hard...and a rogue especially so...but he exposes himself to do so. A striker starts to feel his vulnerability in large combats or in multiple combats over time.

What often happens, in my experience, is that the rogue will either strike and get out or wait for an opportune moment and then charge in AFTER the defenders have engaged. And that's fine. A striker who is on his game and working with the team will be devastating...but he also is aware that his hp, defenses, etc. will mean he has to be careful...or daring.

Also be aware that some things will immediately discourage a striker from just pounding away. An elemental's fire-aura for example, which does damage automatically if you're in range, will certainly make a striker more cautious than a defender in the same situation. Likewise creatures with multiple attacks that take a shot at a defender AND a shot at the striker tend to make the striker much more cautious. If the striker does a LOT of damage and becomes the primary target? Well, then the defender gets the chance to shine.

Ultimately, all that matters is that folks have fun. If everyone is doing that,t hen no problem.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I ran a game just last weekend with a Thief, and while damage output was high, it was not ridiculous for a striker. The Thief is very good at its job - dealing out the Big Damage, but has weaknesses. AC isn't fantastic, and hit points are not great; they're basically glass cannons.

It seemed extreme at first. The Paladin opened the fighting with his Daily, and did 25 damage (they were level 4), and for the Thief, this was his "normal" damage. The players really noticed this, even the one playing the Thief, and thought it was OP at first.

To keep things in perspective, all it took was a few hits to beat the Thief within an inch of his life during that battle, while the Paladin kept taking multiple hits round after round and didn't go down.