Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Mind you, so will he as he gradually dies of boredom.
Actually with the ease that the new thief gets CA, maybe he'll already be used to it.
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Thief seems overpowered to this new/old DM
- Thread starter DJINNIMAN
- Start date
Mind you, so will he as he gradually dies of boredom.
Actually with the ease that the new thief gets CA, maybe he'll already be used to it.
Nullzone
Explorer
The Thief looks impressive in single round examinations, but when you examine it on a macro level it evens out nicely. He's not likely to be dropping 40 damage in a single round at level 1 like a Ranger can (after which their DPR drops off somewhat), but he will be able to handily hit 20-25 consistently. It's even, constant damage flow, rather than having to even out the DPR over the combat by accounting for both the nova rounds and the miss/at-will-only rounds from most other strikers.
And as mentioned, he's fragile. It's REALLY EASY to knock down a Thief if you have several monster turns per round, especially if you lead off with a status effect that grants CA.
Also, if you want to make your Mage feel special: Add 4-8 minions to your combat. He'll wipe the board with them
And as mentioned, he's fragile. It's REALLY EASY to knock down a Thief if you have several monster turns per round, especially if you lead off with a status effect that grants CA.
Also, if you want to make your Mage feel special: Add 4-8 minions to your combat. He'll wipe the board with them
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Ok, I'll take a minority viewpoint here.
1) The Thief does do ridiculous amounts of damage. Much moreso than any other Striker class. The first level Thief in our game averaged 20.5 points of damage at first level and hit a good 90% of the time.
It's not just the damage, it's the fact that for most encounters, the Thief never misses.
2) Yes, the Thief does not have any Daily powers. But, he does more damage with his Backstab encounter power than other Strikers do with their encounter powers. So, the Thief does 20 with At Will, 25 with encounters whereas other Strikers do 15 with At Wills, 20 with encounters, and 25 with dailies. And with his ability to hit nearly every time, the first level Thief is averaging in a 6 round encounter (20*5+25)*0.9= 112 damage whereas other first level strikers are closer to (15*5+20)*0.8= 76 damage.
He's dropping an average of 3.5 foes per encounter whereas other strikers are dropping 2.4 foes. Dropping foes faster means that the PCs save more resources and are in harms way less.
3) The one striker exception to this is the Rogue who has similar damage output. The problem is that the Rogue typically has to be in melee to accomplish this whereas the Thief can stay at range. The low AC of the Rogue gets punished a lot more than that of the Thief.
4) The defense issue of the Thief is a bit misleading as well. Yes, the Thief has a relatively low AC. But most rounds, the Thief isn't a target. And even when he is a target, his AC is often within 1 to 3 of other Strikers. He isn't at that huge of a disadvantage considering that about every other round in combat, he's dropping a foe. Foes that come up to attack him in melee typically don't last long.
5) The ability to do Sneak Attack damage every turn instead of every round (if the PCs are tactically played well) also puts the Rogue and Thief even higher above many other Strikers in damage per encounter.
Overall, the OP's observation is pretty much correct. The Thief does do so much more damage than the other PCs that it is a lot more noticable, especially at first level. As the levels go up, other PCs catch up a little bit because they start getting more encounter and daily powers, but not by much.
One way to correct for this is to encourage your controller and defender PCs to take multi-target powers and make sure that the players knows that they are doing nearly as much damage (plus some possible control) against multiple foes than the Thief is doing against one foe. At least on those rounds where these PCs can pull this off.
1) The Thief does do ridiculous amounts of damage. Much moreso than any other Striker class. The first level Thief in our game averaged 20.5 points of damage at first level and hit a good 90% of the time.
It's not just the damage, it's the fact that for most encounters, the Thief never misses.
2) Yes, the Thief does not have any Daily powers. But, he does more damage with his Backstab encounter power than other Strikers do with their encounter powers. So, the Thief does 20 with At Will, 25 with encounters whereas other Strikers do 15 with At Wills, 20 with encounters, and 25 with dailies. And with his ability to hit nearly every time, the first level Thief is averaging in a 6 round encounter (20*5+25)*0.9= 112 damage whereas other first level strikers are closer to (15*5+20)*0.8= 76 damage.
He's dropping an average of 3.5 foes per encounter whereas other strikers are dropping 2.4 foes. Dropping foes faster means that the PCs save more resources and are in harms way less.
3) The one striker exception to this is the Rogue who has similar damage output. The problem is that the Rogue typically has to be in melee to accomplish this whereas the Thief can stay at range. The low AC of the Rogue gets punished a lot more than that of the Thief.
4) The defense issue of the Thief is a bit misleading as well. Yes, the Thief has a relatively low AC. But most rounds, the Thief isn't a target. And even when he is a target, his AC is often within 1 to 3 of other Strikers. He isn't at that huge of a disadvantage considering that about every other round in combat, he's dropping a foe. Foes that come up to attack him in melee typically don't last long.
5) The ability to do Sneak Attack damage every turn instead of every round (if the PCs are tactically played well) also puts the Rogue and Thief even higher above many other Strikers in damage per encounter.
Overall, the OP's observation is pretty much correct. The Thief does do so much more damage than the other PCs that it is a lot more noticable, especially at first level. As the levels go up, other PCs catch up a little bit because they start getting more encounter and daily powers, but not by much.
One way to correct for this is to encourage your controller and defender PCs to take multi-target powers and make sure that the players knows that they are doing nearly as much damage (plus some possible control) against multiple foes than the Thief is doing against one foe. At least on those rounds where these PCs can pull this off.
The first statement might be true, but the second statement doesn't really follow. We had an almost identical situation with my group's first game of 4E - I had a rogue who was ridiculously accurate and did lots of damage - in fact, almost spot-on identical numbers to what you mention, with a strictly PHB1 Rogue. We had a bunch of defenders, a leader, and a warlock rounding out the party - so the rogue got the chance to shine.
At the cost, meanwhile, of being incredibly fragile.
Yeah, strikers do lots of damage. The thief definitely isn't alone in this, nor does he outclass other top-tier strikers.
I will admit that, at level 1, Rogues and Thieves tend to have a slight edge over others - not having anything to do with number of encounters powers, but just because they are a bit top-heavy in the bonuses they get from feat selection (such as via Backstabber).
But many other strikers can definitely do comparable damage, and the relatively small difference fades within a level or two.
I'm not entirely certain of these numbers.
An optimized level 1 Rogue has ~20 damage with At-Wills, like the Thief. And, in fact, higher accuracy aside from when Backstab is used. And encounters and dailies that, rather than just raw extra damage, can let him attack multiple targets, daze, blind, etc.
An optimized level 1 Ranger is closer to 20 than 15 damage with At-Wills, and ramps up quickly over the next few levels. Lower accuracy than the rogue (though double attacks helps)... but over 30 damage with an Encounter power, and daily attacks that can give him extra attacks or boost damage throughout the combat.
Barbarians are only a bit past 15 damage with an At-Will, but are looking at 30 damage with an encounter or daily power, and rages can provide a serious buff for an entire combat.
An optimized level 1 Sorcerer is looking at doing 15 damage with At-Wills... but often to multiple targets. Similar multiple targets with Encounters and dailies, or, again, 30 damage dailies to one target.
Of other Essentials strikers, Slayers join in with 20 damage At-wills, or close to 30 damage via Power Strike. Scouts are looking at 20 damage at-Wills, and if really optimized, can crank out 25+ damage.
Warlocks, Monks, Assassins, Avengers, Hexblades... these guys probably clock in closer to the numbers you give, but all have some unique offerings of their own.
Thieves are absolutely good. But so are many other strikers. Thieves, like the other Essentials classes, do so a bit more easily 'out of the gate', but at the cost of some versatility - less ability to inflict conditions, go after multiple targets, etc. Or bring forth truly game-changing daily powers. He's definitely in the top tier of strikers, but he certainly isn't somehow beyond it.
I played a ranged rogue in LFR for quite some time, and had Combat Advantage virtually all the time. That was before Martial Power 2 - these days, the rogue has plenty of options for regularly having CA at range.
But neither does the rogue, if he is being attacked. His AC is generally fine, due to the focus on Dex - but low hp and other low defenses make him fragile.
This is true. But it takes a bit more of a build than found in most level 1 characters to really take advantage of this new capability.
I believe that you are mistaken here.
I doubt any 1st level Rangers can sustain a near average of 20 damage at first level with At Will powers.
Taking Weapon Proficiency Greatbow, that would be 2D12+1D6 with Twin Strike for 16.5 average damage IF both attacks hit. If one misses, that's 10 average damage.
Course, a Greatbow is +2 instead of +3, it doesn't include Weapon Finesse for damage, and it doesn't get Combat Advantage nearly as often (kind of rare at first level).
If you have two PCs, one ranged Ranger and one ranged Thief with 20 Dex, the Ranger is:
+5 to hit Dex, +2 to hit Greatbow, no bonuses to damage, 2D12+D6 max = 16.5 damage
The Thief is:
+5 to hit Dex, +3 to hit Shortsword, +2 bonus Weapon Finesse, Backstabber Feat D8 sneak attack, 1D6+2D8+5+2 = 19.5 damage (20.06 average damage with criticals on sucessful hits)
One is 3 dice. One is 3 slightly lower dice plus 7.
And, DPR is something else. Against a same level foe (i.e. AC 15, Level + 14)
Ranger: +7 to hit, hits 65% of time, DPR 12.07125
Thief: +11 to hit, hits 85% of the time, DPR 17.05
Ranger with Expertise instead of Greatbow: DPR 11.22125
Not even close. The Thief averages ~40% more damage per round.
Melee Rangers don't fare any better because damage is better than bonuses to hit at first level.
And Ranger first level Encounter powers are damage-wise still less compared to the Thief's normal every round At Will. They max at 2W, so they do 2D12+D6+5 damage, but hit less often. So, DPR 15.875. A slightly higher average damage of 21.5, but it hits less often.
Throw in Backstab and most Ranger Encounter powers look weak.
The Ranger has to use his 3W Daily power to average more damage than the Thief. 20.375 vs. 17.05 (slightly more for the Ranger on a half damage miss power).
The bottom line is that although a Ranger does have some slight additional riders with their Encounter and Daily powers, Thieves wipe out foes a lot quicker. There is no doubt that the same low level party fighting the same encounters, one with the Thief, one with the Ranger, will result in using fewer resources over an averaging encounter day with the Thief than with the Ranger.
And even though the Thief does not get the Ranger Daily power at low level, the fact that he helps save other PC resources by killing foes faster means that some other PCs probably have Daily powers and Action Points left over in late in the day Encounters to easily make up for the fact that the low level Thief is shy a single Daily power.
No contest. The low level Thief kills one foe per 2 rounds. The low level Ranger kills one foe per 3 rounds. The Thief lowers a 6 round encounter down to 5 rounds most encounters compared to the Ranger.
Mapache
Explorer
At 1st level, Rangers aren't that special, and Thieves can easily outstrip them. By late heroic, though, Rangers start pulling ahead of anything else for single-target damage because of their ability to double-dip on every single damage booster with Twin Strike and Encounter/Daily powers that are Twin Strike+. Hunter's Quarry is just a sideshow—Twin Strike is the Ranger's striker class feature. At low levels, though, they're still paying down the primary-attribute-modifier investment on their double damage growth rate.
DracoSuave
First Post
what is this i don't even.
Thieves do not, at level 1, have bonuses to hit that the ranger does not have access to.
Conversely, Rangers have access to Prime Shot which a rogue does not.
No wonder your thief has such high dpr, he's cheating.
Well, the Rangers do not necessarily pull ahead by late heroric, but they do tend to catch up.
For every +1 damage boost for the Ranger, the Thief can more or less also get it (e.g. magic item, weapon focus feat, etc.).
So with a 65% chance to hit, the Ranger gets 1.3 extra damage (.65*2*1) for every one point extra weapon damage whereas the Thief gets 0.9 extra damage (.9*1, second level Weapon Talent allows the Thief to hit even easier and boosts his 0.85 to 0.9). That's 0.4 points DPR that the Ranger gains per +1 damage per weapon die increase.
With the Thief doing about 5 more points of DPR per round than the Ranger at first level, it takes 12 levels or level 13 to just catch up IF both PCs could manage +1 more weapon damage every single level.
But, they typically do not gain +1 damage on the weapon every single level (although Bracers of Archery help). Plus, that's just to catch up.
Also, the 18 or 20 Dex Thief gets a +1 bonus to damage at level 8, 14, 21 (+2 here), and 28 due to ability score boosts. With Twin Strike, the Ranger does not get these boosts to At Will damage (although it does often work for Encounter or Daily powers).
But the real area where Rangers catch up quickly is with Immediate Reaction and Interrupt Encounter powers outside the Ranger's turn.
That's typically a full extra attack per encounter per Encounter power. So at level 7, the Thief is still doing 3 more points of damage per attack plus 21 more points of Backstab damage or 39 extra points of damage in a 6 round encounter over the Ranger, but the Ranger gets 3 extra attacks per encounter in which to do 39 points of damage. He can often manage that.
It usually take mid-Paragon before the Ranger solidly pulls ahead.
Prime Shot?
Are you serious?
I've played with quite a few ranged Rangers and the number of times I've seen Prime Shot used is about once per two encounters. Maybe. The main problem with Prime Shot is that it exposes the ranged Ranger because encounters often start out as NPCs on one side of a map and PCs on the other. The Ranger has to move closer to the NPCs than his allies.
But even IF the Ranger could use Prime Shot every single round, his DPR goes to:
Ranger: +8 to hit, hits 70% of time, DPR 12.845 (12.07125 without Prime Shot)
Thieves can get Combat Advantage nearly every round with their stances and with a team of players who understand how to help the Thief do that, it becomes almost automatic.
How exactly does a low level ranged Ranger get Combat Advantage nearly every round without other PCs giving it to him? Distance Advantage is the only way I can think of and that requires a certain party makeup (i.e. two melee types) and help from his fellow PCs. The other main option is by Hiding, but that too is fairly problematic most rounds. There are very few Ranger powers that give CA to the Ranger and most of them are melee ones. To get CA, the ranged Ranger typically needs help from his fellow PCs. The Thief does not.
The rest of the Thief and Ranger abilities are pretty much a wash with regard to damage. Thieves use Dex for both melee and ranged attacks, so they do not need two ability scores to accomplish that. They can Sneak Attack more than once per round if he can get attacks outside his turn like an Opportunity Attack or a Warlord giving him an extra attack (damage limited to CA still). They can charge for +1 more to hit and melee attack a foe whereas the ranged Ranger cannot. On the other hand, ranged Rangers can use their Action Points do full damage. They get Prime Shot and they do slightly more if an ally gives them an extra attack if they do not have CA. And if they lose CA, they still do good damage.
Where the Ranger catches up is by taking Immediate Reaction or Interrupt Encounter powers instead of powers that do extra damage on an attack.
No contest at low level. The Thief wins the damage contest. Damage-wise, the Ranger doesn't catch up until level 7 when he has 3 Encounter Attack powers (the Daily powers help, but on overall average damage, the Encounter powers are the power curve).
The melee 4E Ranger can get Combat Advantage at least half of the time. But, he does less DPR than the ranged Ranger without the Combat Advantage, so his DPR tends to still be lower unless he gets CA most rounds (i.e. 11.335 DPR with twin strike Bastard Swords and Two Blade Fighting Style, 12.61 DPR with CA).
Note: I haven't done any calculations for either a ranged or melee Ranger from Essentials. It looks like their DPR is quite a bit better than a ranged or melee Ranger from 4E, but not quite enough to catch up to a Thief until the second half of heroic or later.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
The higher numbers quoted for the Thief may include the bonus from Backstab, which is completely inappropriate, of course.
Alternatively, they may simply reflect Thief Weapon Talent (+1), Nimble Blade (+1 with CA), and the standard CA bonus (+2). It may also assume that the Thief will start with 20 Dexterity and the Ranger will not.
Again, these assumptions aren't really fair. You can't just say "Rogues always get CA but no one else ever does, so the Rogue always has a +2 advantage." While the Thief (and other Rogues) are the big winners in the CA game, and recent rules changes have made CA almost automatic for them, the fact is that CA is now much easier for any character who makes it a priority. Cunning Stalker, Hidden Sniper and Terrain Advantage (all from HotFK) and Vicious Advantage (PHB3) are available to everyone.
However, you shouldn't just assume the Thief's player is cheating. Dex 20 (+5), Dagger Proficiency (+3), Light Blade Expertise (+1) and CA (+2) is probably the combination that totals +11 for the character in question.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
Note that at paragon tier a damage-minded Thief can pull even (or ahead) for a while with MC Seeker + Primal Eye, an option that is not available to the Twin Striking Ranger (though it is to the Hunter). It does require investment in Wisdom, but pre-racial 18 Dex / 12 Con / 12 Wis / 12 Cha (or other score) will work just fine for most Thieves.
[For myself, I like MC Monk + Fluid Motion for Thieves. Combined with Perfect Balance (Acrobatics Utility 6) you can get some excellent movement speeds through even difficult terrain.]
[For myself, I like MC Monk + Fluid Motion for Thieves. Combined with Perfect Balance (Acrobatics Utility 6) you can get some excellent movement speeds through even difficult terrain.]
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