Thief seems overpowered to this new/old DM

[abyssaldeath]

Why are you guys comparing a Thief to a Ranger? If you are trying to figure out if the Thief is OP then shouldn't you be comparing it to a pre-E Rogue?

 

[the Jester]

Why are you guys comparing a Thief to a Ranger? If you are trying to figure out if the Thief is OP then shouldn't you be comparing it to a pre-E Rogue?

I think they're arguing over whether a thief is balanced vs. other strikers, not other rogues.

Karinsdad makes some good points, but I've run 4e since it came out and found that the rogues in my game- granted, all pre-Essentials, but still- seem pretty balanced against the other strikers. Each one plays differently, but they come out about even on balance.

Again, though, that's based on pre-thief rogues.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

The thing is, it doesn't even matter if the Thief is balanced against other strikers unless you have one in your party, but even then, there is more to balance than damage output.

Rangers, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Avengers, Scouts, Barbarians, Monks, and Slayers all do things differently, and have other abilities that a Thief doesn't, and a Thief has a few tricks that they generally don't.

A Thief is pretty specialized for getting in, doing truckloads of damage, and then moving to safety, or otherwise trying to avoid being pulverized by a counter-attack. Good with skills and being sneaky.

They lack the wilderness ability of the Ranger, and the capacity to unload their damage at 20 or more squares away. They lack the Warlock's control effects and excellent invisibility / teleport trickery. They just don't have the Sorcerer's capacity to blast multiple foes, baked-in resists, or flight powers. They lack the ability to deal with undead to the degree an Avenger can, or the way in which an Oath can keep enemies locked down. They can't match a Scout's wilderness knacks, their stances, or capacity for dual-wielding. They can't take damage like a Barbarian, or react the same way to Crits or dropping foes. They lack the ability to deal with multiple adjacent foes like a Monk, though the monk is closest to being able to move like a Thief, they're harder to hit as well (generally). The Slayer is closest in consistency of damage output, but lacking the ability to sneak attack, makes up for it with better armour and hit points.

I know this doesn't answer any perceived specific DPR issues, but I have no intention of getting drawn into a long, boring contest to see who can split mathematical hairs finest.

Their damage is good, but hardly game-breaking. I've run games with a Thief and nobody complains about the damage. YMMV, I guess.

 

[abyssaldeath]

I think they're arguing over whether a thief is balanced vs. other strikers, not other rogues.

Karinsdad makes some good points, but I've run 4e since it came out and found that the rogues in my game- granted, all pre-Essentials, but still- seem pretty balanced against the other strikers. Each one plays differently, but they come out about even on balance.

Again, though, that's based on pre-thief rogues.

That's my point. I don't see any difference in DPR between a Thief or an Artful Dodger Rogue using Sly Flourish or even a Brutal Scoundrel Rogue for that matter. Actually, at 1st level, a Artful Dodger Rogue will have a higher DPR because they have a higher chance to hit and Sly Flourish does extra CHA mod damage and a Brutal Scoundrel adds their STR mod to all SA damage instead of just +2. So if a 1st level pre-E Rogue isn't OP at 1st level then how can a 1st level Thief be OP? It's as apples to apples a comparison as you can make in 4e.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Could you clarify? What do you mean by that sentence, and in particular the parenthesized clause?

The Thief has one protective mechanism that really isn't available to anyone else: using Sneak's Trick to become hidden when only concealment or cover is available. It's possible to attack (hopefully with CA), move via Sneak's Trick and then hide, popping out for the next turn with CA. Even if this results in being hidden only half of the time, that should reduce incoming damage substantially.

Regarding melee range and the necessity to be closer to it than a ranger would, I assume you refer to the shorter range of a thrown dagger. But there are several ways for the Thief to avoid this problem -- the Far Throw and Distant Shot feats, using a Distance Weapon or Determined Weapon (I favor the latter because it still does extra crit damage), or simply using a hand crossbow or sling instead.

The main reason for a Thief to want to be close to the melee action is for specific interaction with other party members. For example, the Thief might want to use Unbalancing Trick to knock an opponent prone or Thug's Trick to lock them down. But in either case, surely the Thief is teaming with a Defender who can limit the risk, another Striker who will provide an equally tempting target, or a Leader who will be able to heal the damage?

Finally, one of the great things about the Thief is that there is no need for any specific secondary ability score. If you choose, you can put a substantial number of points into Constitution, thereby becoming a bit harder to kill.

Ok, i guess I overestimated 20 range or toughness feat... the parenthesized clause was suggesting to let the thief take tougness as first feat.

Yes, the thief seems like he has some staying power... but he is like the good old anarchy online fixer:

dealing damage on masse and not beeing hit a lot. But if a solid hit connects, you may go down.
In my experience, the ranger has a lot more staying power, but maybe my memories are fooled, because the ranger was actually a dwarf...

I still don´t believe the thief is overpowered... maybe his +2 damage bump should come at level 2 or 3 instead of level 1.

But I guess, in the end the thief is more or less balanced and does what is expected. damage and nothing else.

Oh, and don´t forget, that daze is a thief´s worst enemy. And since many dazes attack will, the thief at least has a weak point.

 

[KarinsDad]

Since we're talking about Core Rangers, let's go with Hunter Style. That gives you a nice +4 AC vs. OAs. Taking the Mark into account, that brings it up to a +6 vs. that OA. This is all without taking any feats.

For OAs derived from shooting.

What about the normal attacks of NPCs who aren't engaged with the Defender?

Those attacks against the Ranger using Prime Shot who is now close to the NPCs are not at -6. They are at -0. They are only at -2 if that particular foe is marked. Not all foes are marked by Defenders all rounds.

And, I don't understand your point. OAs derived from shooting are often a small percentage of the overall number of attacks in an encounter.


The Ranger using Prime Shot puts himself in the range of most NPC area effects and a lot of normal attacks by being up close by the Defender. In return, he might do 10+ extra points of damage at Paragon level per round. And it cost him 2 or 3 feats to take this risk.

Yes, he'll take out one half of one foe per encounter more, but he'll also be sucking up a lot of healing surges doing so. I'm not seeing that as necessarily the best strategy.


This is not like the Cleric or the Thief who is hanging back 5 squares or so, just to get some NPCs in range of their attacks. It's jumping in front of the Defender or off to a side by himself. Granted, most PCs should suck up at least one successful NPC attack per encounter, just to balanced out healing surge useage.

But if a Ranger is going to dedicate 2 feats (or 3 feats with Courageous Shooter if he doesn't want to get in harms way quite so much), he's either going to have to give up this tactic sometimes, or he's going to be a healing surge drain. Unlike Defenders, Rangers only get 6+CON healing surges per day. With their lower AC, fewer hit points, and fewer healing surges, they really cannot afford to often be up in the thick of things. And if they are not up in the thick of things a lot, that makes these 2 or 3 feats situationally useful.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Oh, and don´t forget, that daze is a thief´s worst enemy. And since many dazes attack will, the thief at least has a weak point.

Superior Will. Take it early. Take it often.

Take Resilient Focus to make sure Superior Will does its job. Consider being Human in order to take Stubborn Survivor. Consider asking all of your fellow players to play Warlords, Warpriests or Paladins so they can grant you extra saving throws. Consider "forgetting" that you are dazed until someone notices and reminds you. (Okay, maybe not that last one.)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, but 15 stat requirement in wis or charisma will limit your stat choices...

...

of course a halfling thief will get you exactly the right class features and stat bumps to make you as durable as possible... 13 Con, 20 Dex and 15 Cha, +2 OA and a free reroll...

And don´t forget, you are devoting some feats into beeing resilent. Which will make you a little bit less damaging in the long run. A great trade off if you ask me, but one that has to be consider when comparing different classes...

but really, that discussion is moot. A thief that does a lot of damage does its job as it should do!

 

[Mad Hamish]

For OAs derived from shooting.

What about the normal attacks of NPCs who aren't engaged with the Defender?

you can take a few hits, you also have pretty high AC as an archer ranger.
You also have several utility powers as an archer ranger in paragon tier which let you shift away either on creatures becoming adjacent or after they hit you so if you want to get in the enemies face you can escape twice a combat once without taking a hit and once taking a hit.

Those attacks against the Ranger using Prime Shot who is now close to the NPCs are not at -6. They are at -0. They are only at -2 if that particular foe is marked. Not all foes are marked by Defenders all rounds.

And, I don't understand your point. OAs derived from shooting are often a small percentage of the overall number of attacks in an encounter.

yes, but you can still commonly avoid most enemies attacking you as a close in ranger and after a hit or two you generally have ways of escaping.

The Ranger using Prime Shot puts himself in the range of most NPC area effects and a lot of normal attacks by being up close by the Defender. In return, he might do 10+ extra points of damage at Paragon level per round. And it cost him 2 or 3 feats to take this risk.

those 2 feats give +2 to hit & +5 to damage on multiple attacks.
Those are great feats in terms of upping damage.

as an archer ranger you have good reflex defence anyway so a large proportion of area effect attacks miss.

Yes, he'll take out one half of one foe per encounter more, but he'll also be sucking up a lot of healing surges doing so. I'm not seeing that as necessarily the best strategy.

you want to spread the damage out a bit and in my experience playing an archer ranger to level 30 you don't get hit all that often by being close if you're sensible about how you position yourself and what you do.

This is not like the Cleric or the Thief who is hanging back 5 squares or so, just to get some NPCs in range of their attacks. It's jumping in front of the Defender or off to a side by himself. Granted, most PCs should suck up at least one successful NPC attack per encounter, just to balanced out healing surge useage.

But if a Ranger is going to dedicate 2 feats (or 3 feats with Courageous Shooter if he doesn't want to get in harms way quite so much), he's either going to have to give up this tactic sometimes, or he's going to be a healing surge drain. Unlike Defenders, Rangers only get 6+CON healing surges per day. With their lower AC, fewer hit points, and fewer healing surges, they really cannot afford to often be up in the thick of things. And if they are not up in the thick of things a lot, that makes these 2 or 3 feats situationally useful.

you really might want to look at the AC or an archer ranger.
You'll commonly start with 20 dex, hide armour etc. You're probably behind plate wearer with a shield but you're not in bad shape for AC.

combine that with some of the magic items you can get you can be way up there.
Amulet of Elusive Prey, Predator's Hide for example.

Like I've said before, my level 30 archer ranger was hit by Orcus on an attack of opportunity. A 20 from Orcus failed to crit...

 

[KarinsDad]

you really might want to look at the AC or an archer ranger.

You'll commonly start with 20 dex, hide armour etc. You're probably behind plate wearer with a shield but you're not in bad shape for AC.

No. Not terrible. Generally 2 to 3 behind Plate and Shield. It depends on if the archer Ranger has high enough CON to get Hide Specialization or not. Course, we are now talking 3 or 4 feats with which to gain +2 to hit and +5 damage per attack.

And, there are several Defender defense Paragon Paths (either AC or damage resistance), but very few Archer ones.

Plus, a starting 20 Dex means that at least one other defense is on the low side. An easy target for a DM.

A Defender with a two handed weapon tends to be similarly armored. But, such a Defender also tends to have 3+ more healing surges and more hit points (and hence larger heals).

combine that with some of the magic items you can get you can be way up there.
Amulet of Elusive Prey, Predator's Hide for example.

Assuming the PC acquires the absolute perfect items to help out. That tends to happen in character optimization, not as much in all home games.

And of course, the Defenders can get AC or other defense boosting magic items as well like Agile Armor or Meliorating Armor. So, a Defender can generally stay ahead of a Ranger in AC if that is what he wants and the DM allows both PCs to acquire the items that they want.

So even though the Archer has a decent AC, there is no guarantee that it will help if the Defender also has high AC, so the DM modifies his encounters to take two high defense PCs into account.

Like I've said before, my level 30 archer ranger was hit by Orcus on an attack of opportunity. A 20 from Orcus failed to crit...

30th level isn't worth discussing. By then, there are ways that Wizards can be in melee range of Orcus and not break a sweat. Even his Aura of Death is mostly a joke at level 30.


It is true that the Prime Shot boost is a viable build, it just means that the Archer Ranger has to dedicate a lot of his resources to protecting himself in order to get this damage boost. An encounter with some monsters that Stun can seriously pound such a build.