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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5480932" data-attributes="member: 61155">I should back up for a second, and clarify that the numbers I was going by weren't accounting for whether attacks hit or missed - henced why I usually mentioned accuracy seperately. You claimed that the thief was doing 20 damage with his At-Will powers, so I took a look at what damage other classes did with At-Will (and Encounter, etc) powers.  You are correct about the ranger - I think I was accounting for both Greatbow and Weapon Focus. That said, I think it is definitely worth noting that while rangers start a few points behind, they ramp up quickly, since every static bonus to damage gets doubled. I'd say they catch up pretty quick - and, yes, definitely burst higher when using encounters and dailies.  I'm also not entirely sold on the numbers you are using - assuming thieves will have combat advantage is reasonable enough, but assuming others will never have it is less so. Additionally, the attack bonus of your thief seems higher than it should be - and intentionally ignoring the stronger ranger encounter powers seems an easy way to dismiss the damage they can deal. A ranger isn't going to use a random 2W encounter power to deal damage - they will use something like Two-Fanged Strike, potentially deal 2d12+1d6+Dex+Dex+Wis. Dailies include options like Skirmishing Stance - potentially +1d8 damage every round for an encounter. Or Guardian Arrow, which can basicaly given an extra attack each round against one enemy.   And really optimized builds can even bypass the thief. A dwarven ranger with a gouge is looking at ~17.8 average damage via Twin Strike. Or ~25 average damage on the round he uses Two-Fanged Strike. Now, he's more fragile than the rogue, and not as simple to build - but definitely leaves him behind in terms of raw damage.   If you limit yourselves to average 1st level characters, yes, the thief probably comes out ahead of the rogue. Though I don't believe by as much as you are claiming.  Once you get a few levels in, the ranger has pretty much caught up. Each new bonus to damage helps out more. Each new encounter and daily power is significantly stronger than each new backstab the rogue gets.  And, as noted, many other strikers are comparable. You focused heavily here on the ranger, but ignored the fact that many other strikers deal similar damage as well.</blockquote>

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