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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5482276" data-attributes="member: 2011">Let's find out.I've found that Daily powers that give some benefit for the rest of the encounter are a lot more worthwhile than ones that just hit for a lot of damage, possibly miss for half damage, and have some minor rider to them.The ones that don't benefit for an entire round (most of the low level Ranger ones) tend to just be extra damage for the most part.No worries. I foobar all of the time. I'll probably have a foobar in this post.Nope. I am taking that into account. But, let's look at the numbers. Instead of considering CA as something he gets half of the time, let's just do the calculations with and without CA. That way, the numbers are accurate.First off, you gave the Dwarf two +1 waraxes at 4th level. If following the DMG, a DM should typically hand out 4 items for 5 PCs at levels 1 through 3, so it is unlikely that the Dwarf would have 2 of them when he 2.4 magic items, even at the end of level 4 when he has 3.1. Let's give him one +1 magic weapon since that's what we will be giving the Thief as well. As the Ranger levels up, we can assume that when he gets a +2 weapon, that one goes in his main hand and the +1 weapon goes into his off hand, etc. Otherwise, you are skewing the results in his favor due to an extra magic weapon.Also, Weapon Focus and Dwarven Weapon Training are both feat bonuses to damage, so they do not stack. Let's add Two Weapon Fighting which was errated to do +1 damage to both weapons.So, the main hand is +1 magic, +2 level, +2 weapon proficiency, +5 Str , +1 Axe Expertise or +11 to hit AC 19 is an 8 needed on the roll. Damage is D12 (+0.5 brutal) + 2 Dwarven Weapon Training + 1 magic +1 Two Weapon Fighting = 11 damage. We'll assume 3.5 magical weapon damage on a critical.The off hand weapon is not magical, so +10 to hit and 9.5 damage.DPR = .6 (no crit) * 11 + 0.05 (crit) * 19.5 + .55 (no crit) * 10 + 0.05 (crit) * 15 + (1 - .35*.4 - 0.0975) * 3.5 (no crit quarry) + 0.0975 * 6 (crit quarry) = 17.07875CA DPR = .7 (no crit) * 11 + 0.05 (crit) * 19.5 + .65 (no crit) * 10 + 0.05 (crit) * 15 + (1 - .25*.3 - 0.0975) * 3.5 (no crit quarry) + 0.0975 * 6 (crit quarry) = 19.40625This is a bit less than your calculation. But, you gave him a second magical weapon that the Thief did not get, and you gave him +1 for CA half of the rounds which skews the calculation.So, not taking into account encounter powers, the Ranger does 4 rounds of 17.07875 to 19.40625 points of damage. You don't get quarry damage for Avenging Charge, so 2D12+1+9, DPR = .65 (no crit) * 22 + 0.05 (crit) * 36.5 = 16.775. Two Fanged ranges from 23.32875 to 27.58125 with CA.No CA: 104.4963 DPECA: 117.7288 DPEEven using your Thief DPR (which I won't), you need to have CA some of the time to stay even.Let's improve upon the Thief (since the Dwarven Ranger was optimized).First off, consider that I have not given the Thief a race. I could give him Revenant or Bugbear to do extra damage once per round. I could make him an Elf and turn a miss into a hit most times it happens. Or Gnoll and +2 damage when bloodied. Or two rounds of CA with a Changeling. Or a variety of others that result in more DPE. And this does not take into account racial feats like the Dwarf took (which btw, Dwarven Weapon Training is one of the strongest racial feats in the game).So, I can easily throw more DPE in the pot due to race which easily counters a Daily power in DPE per day.Going back to a vanilla Thief, let's throw out the Light Blade Expertise and use Spiked Chain Training instead.So, his weapon is +1 magic, +2 level, +3 weapon proficiency, +5 Dex, +2 CA +1 Thief Weapon Talent or +14 to hit AC 19 is a 5 needed on the roll. Damage is 2D4 + 2 Weapon Finesse + 1 magic +2D8 Backstabbing Sneak Attack +5 Dex +1 Weapon Focus = 23 damage. We'll assume 3.5 magical weapon damage on a critical.Level 4 Thief, Dex 21, Spiked Chain Training, Weapon Focus, Backstabber, +1 Spiked Chain.DPR = .75 (no crit) * 23 + 0.05 (crit) * 36.5 = 19.075Backstab DPR = .9 (no crit) * 26.5 + 0.05 (crit) * 42.5 = 25.9755 Round combat, 2 of them Backstab rounds: 109.175 damage.Note: Your Thief damage was off as well. Yours actually resulted in 110.4 DPE, but I wanted the cool reach and to illustrate that Light Weapon Expertise can be acquired at level 6 for +1 to hit and damage. The Ranger would be hard put to gain that at level 6 with a feat.And of course, the Thief can charge for an additional +1 to hit with his attacks (and be 10 feet away). The Ranger cannot without dropping DPR.The extra damage from Spiked Chain is minimal, but it also gives him Reach. It's also better damage (14) for OAs, actually higher than the 11 of the Ranger. Any party member that hands out free attacks will give it to the Thief, not the Ranger (and if the Thief can get CA, woo hoo).And any +2 Dex race can do this.The Thief has better AC and better Reflex. The Ranger, better Fort.So, the Thief can still be a slight bit ahead at level 4.Granted, the Ranger will get a +2 for +1 boost on Twin Strike damage anytime he can boost weapon damage. There are a few items for that, but not too many feats (at least at heroic). But, the Thief gets +5 more damage that the Ranger does not get by level 30 because his ability score bonus adds to his At Will damage. For example, +1 more at level 8.And there are a ton of feats and items that help Charges which the Thief can do for more damage than the Ranger. For example, Surprising Charge is +5 damage for the Spiked Chain Thief. And once the Ranger is getting CA most of the time, the Thief will be getting it even when it is not his turn.All in all, the Thief has a lot of staying power here. The Ranger is really limited if he wants to match DPE.PS. A Wizard can beat either of these for DPE if designed for multi-target damage.</blockquote>

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