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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5482668" data-attributes="member: 61155">Pretty much in agreement here. Now, big simple damage dailies can be nice in the right situations - in a fight where you really just need to unload as much damage as quickly as possible - but I do tend to favor ones with an ongoing effect, or that give some capability not normally available (like attacking multiple targets) or inflict some very potent condition.  The thief is certainly effective without them, but you can't deny that some of the top-tier dailies can be game-changers when used at the right time.   Ok, fair enough.   Going to have to disagree with you here. Yeah, he is probably likely to have only found a single +1 weapon by level 4. But by that level, every PC has also probably earned ~600 gp in money - and a second +1 weapon is easily within that price range, and a common magic item, and going to be a high priority for a dual-wielder. Feel free to also assume that the rogue has spent cash on any extra level 1 common item of his choice, though.  I suppose your concerns about race are founded - my point, though, was that there are definitely builds out there which can match the thief, which I think stands (especially by how much ahead of the thief this build comes out - even with an optimized race, I don't think the thief is going to catch up.)  But let's go ahead and look at the numbers without DWT in the picture.  Level 4 Ranger vs Level 4 Rogue (hidden due to length and math)[sblock]Level 4 Ranger. Str 20, 2 x +1 Waraxe, Waraxe Proficiency, Axe Expertise, Weapon Focus, Two-Fanged Strike, Avenging Charge. We'll look at a five round combat - let's assume, as a melee character, he will have Combat Advantage for 2 of the 5 rounds (and will use Two-Fanged Strike on one of those rounds, as seems tactical, but that he won't have it for Avenging Charge, which he'll have to use whenever a good opportunity arises.) Twin Strike without Combat Advantage: +11 vs AC 19: d12(b1)+2. 1/400 chance of both attacks critting: 35 damage. (12+12+6+2+2+3.5+3.5)24/400 chance of one attack critting and one hitting: 32.5 damage. (12+6+2+3.5+7+2)14/400 chance of one attack critting and one missing: 23.5 damage. (12+6+2+3.5)144/400 chance of both attacks hitting: 21.5 damage. (7+7+2+2+3.5)168/400 chance of one attack hitting and one missing: 12.5 damage. (7+2+3.5)49/400 chance of both attacks miss: 0 damage.Total DPR: 15.85 Twin Strike with Combat Advantage: +13 vs AC 19: d12(b1)+2. 1/400 chance of both attacks critting: 35 damage. (12+12+6+2+2+3.5+3.5)28/400 chance of one attack critting and one hitting: 32.5 damage. (12+6+2+3.5+7+2)10/400 chance of one attack critting and one missing: 23.5 damage. (12+6+2+3.5)196/400 chance of both attacks hitting: 21.5 damage. (7+7+2+2+3.5)140/400 chance of one attack hitting and one missing: 12.5 damage. (7+2+3.5)25/400 chance of both attacks miss: 0 damage.Total DPR: 17.86 Two-Fanged Strike with Combat Advantage: +13 vs AC 19: d12(b1)+7.225/400 chance of both attacks hitting or critting: Does 11 damage more than Twin Strike.150/400 chance of one attack hitting or critting: Does 5 damage more than Twin Strike. 25/400 chance of both attacks missing: Does 0 damage more than Twin Strike.DPR: 25.9225 Avenging Charge without Combat Advantage: +12 vs AC 19: 2d12(b1)+7. Assuming quarry is not available. 1/20 chance of a crit: 33.5 damage. (12+12+7+2.5)13/20 chance of a hit: 20.5 damage. (7+6.5+7)6/20 chance of a miss: 0 damage.Total DPR: 15 So, in a 5 round combat, we're looking at 1 Twin Strike with Combat Advantage (17.86), 3 Twin Strikes without Combat Advantage (15.85 x 3), 1 Two-Fanged Strike with Combat Advantage (25.9225), and one Avenging Charge (15), for a total of 106.3325 damage.  So, assuming the ranger has combat advantage less than half the time that the thief has it, the damage comes out virtually the same - within 2 to 3 points of damage in a combat, using your numbers for the thief (109.175 damage).  The thief does have some advantages, as you note - higher AC/Ref, better charges and OAs, compared to higher Fort plus Daily powers.  But the damage is pretty much on par - and, again, this is without a fully optimized ranger. The thing is, I'm pretty sure, the more optimization available, the further the ranger comes out ahead, since it is making more attacks and thus taking better advantage of any additional bonuses.  And, again, note the Scout - coming in with 110.4375 damage. Again, right in the same range. And, again, with multiple attacks, will almost certainly comes out ahead of the thief the more optimization is in play - and can take advantage of all the same basic attack boosters that the thief does. [/sblock]Your initial claim was that no one else even came close to the Thief in terms of regular damage. It simply isn't true. The thief, the rogue, the ranger, the scout - all of these are in the same field as far as damage goes. The sorcerer is easily up there if it can regularly target at least two enemies. And I suspect others can at least get close.  We've been going back and forth here with the math, and I think you are missing the point - that even when the numbers are slightly off, all these builds are in the same range. Some optimized builds will pull ahead of the thief, others will fall behind. There are various tricks you can build around, and maybe at later levels you can truly create a thief OA machine. But there are plenty of other combos that other classes can take advantage of as well.  I'm not denying that he does good damage. I'm denying that the damage he deals is completely out of the league of other strikers. You claimed he was putting down an entire additional monster each combat, and that is very, very far from universally true.   I agree with most of your statements, but not the last one. Yes, there are ways to optimize the thief, and taking advantage of boosting basic attacks is up there. But there are also plenty of feats, items and powers that will enhance the ranger, especially as it gets more and more encounter and daily powers.  Claiming that the Thief, at level 1, is at the top of damage - that is an argument you can make. I don't think he is as far ahead as you have claimed, but I won't deny that he is in the lead.  Claiming that the Ranger (and any other class) is limited as they level in keeping up with the Thief's damage? No way.  Your Paragon and Epic level thieves will definitely be awesome, and do excellent damage and rarely miss. But the sheer number of attacks that rangers are able to unleash, with significant bonuses to damage on each one? The versatility of encounter and daily powers that other classes tap into?  Those are a force to be reckoned with, and definitely not something you can simply dismiss.</blockquote>

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