D&D 5E Thievery in 5e - still relevant?

[Tony Vargas]

I suppose you have to question whether or not the game actually emulates genre then.

I guess there's not a big practical difference between failing to model genre, and choosing not to emulate it, at all? Other than, if you're honestly in the latter category, you maybe shouldn't stick the genre label on whatever you're offering?

 

[Lanefan]

In decent genre fiction, the hero getting captured is not un-fun for the reader, and the hero later escaping might be especially entertaining.
A decent genre TTRPG should capture that.

Which reminds me... treasure hunting in genre is ambiguous, the hero can be motivated by treasure-hunting, but so might the villain, and greed can still end up being a very bad thing. Classic editions did try to capture that, a bit, with fiendish traps and cursed items awaiting the too-greedy, ...

And the un-cautious or unwise. I like there being cursed items in the game, and I say this as a player who has lost more than a few characters to them over the years.

even if they didn't exactly draw a line for what too-greedy was...

Too greedy? Too greedy? Explain this foreign concept you speak of.

 

[jmartkdr2]

So I just checked and inPathfinder 2e the Thievery skill can be used in downtime to Earn Income, although it’s noted as being harder (higher dc) than more legitimate options. And Earn Income is designed to be a lot less lucrative than actually adventuring in general.

 

[pemerton]

Even now, I'm a bit torn on the 3e-4e approach.

<snip>

All the infinite money exploits inherent in the magic system went from being "cute, but not really relevant" to suddenly game breaking! And this led to the downfall of thievery, I feel, as suddenly, the DM was cautioned to absolutely not ever let players exceed the wealth by level guidelines, for fear of their game imploding!

If you can't be any more successful as a thief than as an adventurer, why be a thief?

Thievery in 4e seems trivial at the structural level: there are encounters (skill challenges, perhaps also combats) and there are corresponding treasure parcels.

You'd need the right sort of PC builds, though - say a ranger, a thief, a wizard and a warlock.

 

[pemerton]

On a granular level it can be done well enough (which is all I need); that there's no high-level-view mode of resolution isn't to me an issue.

Just to give one example:

In two different REH stories (The Scarlet Citadel and The Hour of the Dragon), Conan escapes imprisonment because of opportunities provided by NPCs. D&D has no very good rules for opening up this possibility, beyond the GM deciding to introduce the NPC in question.

 

[pemerton]

Notable here is that your example of a game that has un-fun periods is an RPG, because that speaks to something RPGs have that many other games don't: greatly varying modes of play as the game rolls along. And each of those modes might be fun for some but not for others

That is not what I am talking about. If one person is enjoying a thing, that can carry others along.

But no one at my table enjoys Traveller ship combat as best I can tell. Hence our game doesn't include it.

 

[pemerton]

One of the things D&D lacks is any sort of narrative system for getting the party out of the kinds of extremely tight spots with bad odds that are so common to protagonists in genre. Escaping from a combat you're losing is another one that's standard genre fare that D&D hasn't usually done much to cover.
I guess the "social contract" also comes into it. If "capture & escape" scenes are a thing in genre (a way to get information when the villain monologues, for instance, is a classic) and the game emulates genre, players might not have PCs go to extremes to avoid capture when they're beaten, or, indeed, take extreme measures to avoid risky encounters where they might be beaten.

In decent genre fiction, the hero getting captured is not un-fun for the reader, and the hero later escaping might be especially entertaining.
A decent genre TTRPG should capture that.

I think escape, in RPGing, works better in the context of binding resolution frameworks than "GM decides" resolution frameworks.

Which reminds me... treasure hunting in genre is ambiguous, the hero can be motivated by treasure-hunting, but so might the villain, and greed can still end up being a very bad thing. Classic editions did try to capture that, a bit, with fiendish traps and cursed items awaiting the too-greedy, even if they didn't exactly draw a line for what too-greedy was...

REH's Conan frequently sacrifices the treasure to do the right thing. A RPG which encourages expedience over forthrightness and generosity is not going to produce a Conan-esque experience.

 

[Lanefan]

Just to give one example:

In two different REH stories (The Scarlet Citadel and The Hour of the Dragon), Conan escapes imprisonment because of opportunities provided by NPCs. D&D has no very good rules for opening up this possibility, beyond the GM deciding to introduce the NPC in question.

As in what happens during module A4 in the Slavers series where a sympathetic NPC leaves tools for the PCs (IMO that module wasn't among TSR's better moments).

But if the NPC isn't introduced, the PCs might still have options at the granular level e.g. bending the cell bars, overpowering a guard, manufacturing a tool of some sort and picking the lock, using some sort of magical ability, etc....though given the situation (they are captives, after all) those options could be quite limited in scope and have little chance of success.

One of the hardest types of character to keep captive is one who can innately shapeshift. I figured out a way to do it but it requires (non-magical) resources not every captor will have access to.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So I just checked and inPathfinder 2e the Thievery skill can be used in downtime to Earn Income, although it’s noted as being harder (higher dc) than more legitimate options. And Earn Income is designed to be a lot less lucrative than actually adventuring in general.

Yeah, but you can take the Earned Income Credit.

I think escape, in RPGing, works better in the context of binding resolution frameworks than "GM decides" resolution frameworks.

REH's Conan frequently sacrifices the treasure to do the right thing. A RPG which encourages expedience over forthrightness and generosity is not going to produce a Conan-esque experience.

Yes, just punting to the DM isn't a great resolution system.

Conan would not have been the first example to leap to my mind, but, yes, in genre, it's often common to have a little greed parable sub-plot where a secondary character is captured/killed/damned-for-eternity/whatever because they gave in to avarice, while the hero (even if he's successfully hunting treasure before and after) does not succumb. Genre doesn't always make oodles of sense.

Anyway, the point that gold isn't good for much in the context of 5e, then, must mean that it can deliver that kind of Conan-esque experience! No?

 

[Larnievc]

They can accept something they don't like in the game as it makes sense in the game. And the GM here will use them whenever the chance comes up.

Why should they need to? Getting turned to stone in round one of a fight that might take nearly and hour is fun in what way?