D&D 5E Thievery in 5e - still relevant?

[payn]

My approach to the game might be entirely different but I dont need the game mechanics to support actions directly. I have come to understand from these boards that some players need to see tangible effects of their abilities supported directly by the rules. I dont. In fact, I prefer it if the thief isnt stealing every candy from every baby to buy magic junk. I would rather there be a purpose behind the heists. The thief wants to be known as the most renowned, serve an altruistic robin hood like purpose, cause political disruption, etc... I guess im more proactive in my play and have a more grandiose vision of play than rob everybody so I can buy magic sword.

That said, yes the thief still has a place in D&D and always will.

 

[Umbran]

"Let me split the party, and insist I go off on my own adventure that the GM has to run for ME," just doesn't work so well. Not that you can't do it, but it can present problems. That's why 5e relegates it to the "Crime" downtime action.

I should add - that downtime action is a fine place for this archetype to live - because the complications that downtime action can generate are adventure fodder for the whole family!

 

[Faolyn]

D&D  has had many better ways to handle gold. They just don't care about them anymore.

Or more likely, a sufficient number of players never bothered with those reasons (nobody in any of the AD&D groups I played or heard about from friends ever cared about, say, owning property), so WotC decided that there's no real reason to include detailed rules for them. Although, of course, the 5e DMG does have some basic costs for building castles and guildhalls and the like.

(Although perhaps ironically, the only time I ever ran a game where the players wanted to own property--in this case, a theater, inn/tavern, and factory--was in a GURPS Dungeon Fantasy game.)

 

[Vaalingrade]

Magic item purchasing isn't supported by 5e RAW,

Well there's your use of Thievery.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Or more likely, a sufficient number of players never bothered with those reasons (nobody in any of the AD&D groups I played or heard about from friends ever cared about, say, owning property), so WotC decided that there's no real reason to include detailed rules for them. Although, of course, the 5e DMG does have some basic costs for building castles and guildhalls and the like.

(Although perhaps ironically, the only time I ever ran a game where the players wanted to own property--in this case, a theater, inn/tavern, and factory--was in a GURPS Dungeon Fantasy game.)

Fair enough. I just don't see the point in "making a nod" to a part of the game that the designers have decided not enough fans care about. Just admit the type of game you want to make and make it. Those who like the things you're cutting out aren't going to be satisfied with a "nod", and will instead be irritated you're not taking it seriously, so why bother?

 

[FrozenNorth]

Magic item purchasing isn't supported by 5e RAW, if I'm not mistaken; and while I too would houserule it in in a heartbeat I'm asking from more of a RAW/as-designed perspective this time.

You are mistaken. It wasn’t in the original 3 books, but rules for selling and purchasing magical items during downtime were included in Xanathar’s Guide to everything.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't find the archetype, as you detail it, to have been particularly strong. While folks like the image of the thief who goes off on their own and does crime, the game has never really supported it well - both in basic tactical terms, and in the meta-consideration of GM attention, it has issues.

"Let me split the party, and insist I go off on my own adventure that the GM has to run for ME," just doesn't work so well. Not that you can't do it, but it can present problems. That's why 5e relegates it to the "Crime" downtime action.

This.

 

[jgsugden]

...Given that there really isn't much in 5e to spend money on other than relative trivialities such as inn rooms and mundane gear, and given that 5e as written places very little emphasis on downtime between adventures, does the traditional "Thief" archetype within the Rogue class even have a place in the game any more?...
By the Thief archetype I mean the character who is the typical party Rogue while in the field but when in town between adventures pulls off a few 'jobs' or heists to enhance either its own personal wealth or that of the party; or who buys and sells information on the side; or who has contacts in many shady places the rest of the PCs might not want to know about...

Your starting premise is faulty. There is no more or less to spend money on in 5E than in prior editions. Go look at the PHB and DMG for 4E, 3.5, 3E, 2E, AD&D, etc.... People keep making this claim, but there is as much in the 5E books to support the use of wealth as there is in the prior editions. And even if you disagree and believe that there was more in the prior editions - so what? The things you spend money on outside of magic items do not require much rule support. You just need a good story to support the spending.

That being said, the thief/rogue has never had a unique place. Magic is a better route to achieve anything a thief/rogue can do. Knock vs lock pick. Teleportation spells versus sneaking through a castle. Clairaudience/clairvoyance versus spying. You can summon up monsters that do the rogue 'acuisition' skillset better than the rogue. Dominate person plus modify memory is a real solid way to get away with almost anything. Heck... a lot of their skillset can be done by a non-magical barbarian:

Pick locks - with an axe to the door.
Stealth with intimidation: "YOU DON'T SEE ANYTHING!"
Disarm traps with extra hps.

The rogue/thief role is not there to fill an empty role - it is there because it is fun to play. It is an archetype from fiction that stands out and plays an important role in many stories - so we want to include it in the game - but to a large extent it is superflous when you have magic available. So do we need to fix it? No. Because you can't unless you remove magic.

This is the primary example I cite when I say that balance between classes and PCs in D&D is a fool's errand. If you try to give the rogue a unique role that can't be filled by a sneaky barbarian or a wizard ... well, you're either cutting off huge areas of design space from those classes, or your're failing. D&D classes do not need to be balanced. They need to be fun. Rogue archetypes are fun, even if underpowered.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Spell components.
Food.
Arrows.
A home.
A castle.
An army.
Taxes.
Tithe.
Theft.
Bribery.

Nope. Nothing to spend money on.

The first three are trivial expenses within the first five levels. The remainder have no existence beyond what the GM has dreamed up for them, meaning players are left in the dark as to whether that's valuable (read: lots of GMs like to think they make this stuff valuable...this assessment is contentious, shall we say.)

 

[Faolyn]

Fair enough. I just don't see the point in "making a nod" to a part of the game that the designers have decided not enough fans care about. Just admit the type of game you want to make and make it. Those who like the things you're cutting out aren't going to be satisfied with a "nod", and will instead be irritated you're not taking it seriously, so why bother?

Because by giving a "nod," you're providing the basic chassis that a dedicated player can use to create their own system--either as house rules or as a 3pp. Those who don't care can just ignore the few paragraphs of text and table in the DMG (under downtime activities). Those who do care, but not enough to create a system, can just handwave it and say "OK, the book says it costs 50,000 gp and 400 days to make a keep. You want it fancy? Eh, OK, make it 75,000 gp and it'll take 500 days. Why don't we do a time skip instead of adventuring for a year and a half while it's under construction."

I know that Level Up has a whole system for creating strongholds, but that's math. And most of the time, you don't really need to worry about square footage. Just decide what special areas you want in it and don't worry about the exact square footage--fireballs aren't level-cleaners, after all. Roll a die to find out how many rounds it takes to Dash from room A to room B and you're set. If the exact square footage is really important, make the players draw the floorplan on some graph paper and have them count the squares.

Also, D&D is "all things to all people" and therefore they are making the type of game they want to play.