D&D 3E/3.5 Things from 3e (inc PF) not done well

[Connorsrpg]

In keeping with the other threads, please use this to list items only.

We will create other threads for discussion. Cheers.

For mine (to start):

1. Cross-referencing monster/NPC stats. I know others like them (and they are fine if you know the system inside out), but having to look up several spells, feats, or even common abilities is a nightmare for keeping combats fast. (Case in point - I bought PF Beastiary. Looked at my good old fav, simple orc? Two powers I did not know. 1 was 'Light Sensitivity', with no description, so I look it up in the back and it tells me orcs are dazzled in bright light. So I find Dazzled in the massive core book. It turns out Orcs are -1 to attack (I think) in bright light. Why not write that in the original statblock? Would have been shorter. Anyway, broke my own list rule, will create thread if others wish).
2. Aligning Elements with Energy types. Like Earth with Acid? Just have the elements as spell descriptors too.

Your turn. I'll be back

 

[Ahnehnois]

General 3.X complaints:

*Hit points
*Imbalance between the six ability scores
*Numbers from nurture (skills, BAB, base saves, etc.) being bigger than those from nature )ability modifiers)
*Different mechanical platform for skills vs. saves vs. attacks
*CR/EL/XP and XP costs
*Vancian magic
*Multiclassing math (i.e. +2 to good saves repeatedly, not adding fractions, etc.)
*Per-day abilities
*Tome of Battle
*Prestige classes outpacing base classes and becoming central elements
*Prestige class proliferation
*Half ranks in skills
*Healing magic
*Relative unimportance of race
*Psionics as magic
*Underutilization of skills and feats in general
*Too hard to die and too easy to be resurrected

Specific to PF:

*Rage points, Grit points, Ki points, etc. (point proliferation?)
*Nonlethal, expensive, impractical firearms
*Goblins
*Kitchen sink settings
*Emphasis on published adventures

 

[Balesir]

Sorry, if I try to write a list I'll go mad, and just wouldn't know where to start. All of it, though, boils down to a simple issue:

1) Incoherence/incompatibility with itself.

The rules system sets out to describe a high fantasy world so that the DM (and maybe even the players, if given the chance) can make deductions and extrapolations about how the game-world works. But the game world itself does not make sense: the existence of hit points and high level characters alongside armies of low-level spell-fodder, the existence of castles somehow not neutralised by flying attackers, the need for medieval-style agriculture alongside spells that produce food "by magic" - all mitigate against developing a game world that actually works.

Basically, the system - much as the 2nd edition before it, but much less so the editions before that - tries to do two incompatible things, and consequently fails at both of them. Other concerns - the overpoweredness of multiclassing, the pointlessness of playing anything but a spellcaster at high levels and so on - are really just minor niggles and nitpicks compared to this one, central problem.

 

[wingsandsword]

1. Extreme complexity of high-level/epic-level play. 3.x is truly wonderful at low to mid levels, but at high levels it bogs down into tedious accounting.

2. Multiclassing mathematics. You could get hideously stacked saving throws by taking single levels in various classes.

3. Lack of a spontaneous divine caster in the core rules.

4. The fact that the later 3.x splatbooks came out with so many radically changing mechanics and concepts that a late 3.5 character would only be superficially like a core 3.5 character (Tome of Magic & Book of 9 Swords, looking right at you)

I am NOT going to complain about the existence of things like Hit Points, or Vancian Magic, or Healing Magic, or any other perennial D&Disms, because we are talking about a D&D edition here, not about designing your personal ideal fantasy RPG.

If you remove classes & levels, the six ability scores, hit points, Vancian magic, healing magic, and other staples of the genre you have nothing left that can identify the game beyond a trademark stamped on the book.

If you want a game which is so radically different from OD&D, Basic D&D, AD&D 1e, AD&D 2e, and D&D 3.xe (maybe even D&D 4e) that it drops common threads that appear in all or even most of those games, you might well be happier going to another game entirely.

D&D is a quasi-medieval fantasy game. It has the superficial trappings of the middle ages and renaissance, but with magical elements of high fantasy. You are going to have castles, and peasant farmers, and vast armies, and monsters, and wizards, and clerics, all coexisting. Trying to completely, totally re-work the implied setting away from medieval fantasy would be something else that cuts the heart out of what it means to be D&D in any edition.

If nothing else, understand that many games/settings imply that the high-level spellcasters that are powerful enough to shift the tide of a battle, or singlehandedly bring down a castle, or create food for an entire town, are very, very rare.

2e sourcebooks like The Castle Guide implied that a 14th or 15th level Cleric would be a religious leader on the scale of the Pope: the head of a major faith across the known world, and a 9th level Cleric would be something on the scale of a Bishop of a major city, with a local Parish priest being around 5th level, assisted by lesser priests. The vast majority of characters were implied to be 5th level or below, and 20th level characters being rarer than 1 in a million (2nd edition sourcebook Player's Option: High Level Campaigns explicitly said that a 20th level character would be a little rarer than 1 in a million in the population)

1e D&D, a monk couldn't even go over 17th level, and high-level monks were so rare that there were only 3 8th level monks, and only a single 9th through 17th level monk in the world (Oriental Adventures implied it was per religion, the PHB implied it was global).

In 1e AD&D, the leader of the entire Assassin class across the world was 15th level.

In 2e AD&D, the leader of the entire Druid class across the world was 15th level, with rules for higher level Druids reserved for retired former leaders of the entire Druidic order.

In the D&D 3.5e setting of the Order of the Stick comic, the PC's aren't even sure if there are ANY 17th level Clerics on the planet, and the High Priest of an entire pantheon, based out of one of the more powerful nations on the planet, was 11th or 12th level (the High Priest of the 12 Gods vs. Redcloak in the Battle of Azure City, the highest-level spell he used was Hold Monster).

A large town with a single 5th level Cleric isn't going to be able to feed the entire town with Create Food and Water, and a 5th level wizard (that might be the highest level wizard with a small army) might drop a single Fireball or Lightning Bolt on the battlefield and do a lot of damage, but that's his single big shot and he's then unarmored, poorly armed, and hopefully not unescorted.

In Dragon Magazine #5, there was the famous article "Gandalf was a Fifth-level Magic User" where it showed that every spell Gandalf cast in the LotR novels was 3rd level or lower in D&D magic.

I say all this to point out that high level characters in earlier editions were implied to be extremely rare, so that the medieval fantasy was kept by making high-level magic (and other powers of high-level characters) extremely rare, with most characters being low level, and spellcasters being less common than other classes.

 

[TerraDave]

I would just sum up as: unneeded complexity and fidliness. While the core was pretty clean, so much as added on in terms of subsystems, spells, class specific stuff, monster specific stuff...and so much had these little twists and turns. Try looking up, say, incorporeal and incorporeal monsters...both are involved, and are similar....but not exactly the same! And of course, you would get interactions across this, that, and the other....

Yet after some point, you could go into battle with all these complicated characters, and monsters...and one spell later the whole thing is over.

 

[delericho]

- Too complex, even in its simplest iteration (3.0e).

- Waaaay to complex at high level.

- Imbalance between spellcasters and non-spellcasters.

- The Rogue too reliant on sneak attack, coupled with huge numbers of monsters being immune to the same.

- Monster stat-blocks listing spell-like abilities without further detail. Reusing standard powers was a good thing, but they really should have reprinted everything that needs to be known.

- Too many prestige classes were just broken.

- Ability score modifiers were too big, rendering ability scores too important. For new players, it is very strongly preferable to roll ability scores, but this was too badly sub-optimal in 3e.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I'm sure there's more, but here's what I've got off the top of my head.

MAGICIANS
1) Shapeshifting allowing you to gain traits of the creature at a base level.
2) Magic giving boosts to skills that is greater than the skill bonus of the creature. Staggering and stacking buffs.
3) Charm magic that is too powerful, or that creatures forget have affected them.
4) Elemental damage being competitive with warrior damage.
5) Invisibility and other powerful illusions that are hard to save against or see through.
6) Summons having no limits, and being able to use spells and spell-like abilities.
7) Fly and similar magic being commonplace.
8) Long-distance teleportation.
9) Healing being used instead of damage prevention. Bringing characters back to life is much too easy.
10) Divination magic that can see the future, or too much of the past or present.
11) Magical effects that speed up or slow down time being too powerful or easy.
12) All spell slots returning overnight.
13) Preparing or choosing spells for spell slots.
14) You cannot continue to cast spells once you're out, even if they're very low level.
15) Spells don't scale well.
16) Save or suck/die spells should give a save every round in most scenarios.
17) No limit on number of ongoing spells out at once.

WARRIORS
1) Too focused on combat.
2) Damage is competitive with mages, rather than better.
3) HP is much too high.
4) On that note, damage is much too high. Bring both numbers down (with mages under them).
5) One 5th level warrior is much too powerful compared to a dozen 1st level warriors.
6) Too rigid in their fighting style of choice. They should be able to specialize, but should also be able to adapt to most martial situations at least decently.
7) No stance/maneuver system for warriors with different styles (not TBo9S).

SKILL MONKEYS
1) Skills taking too many character resources most of the time.
2) Skills being much too powerful (Diplomacy) or too niche (Use Rope).
3) Number of skills is about right, but certain skills should be combined, and others should be added.
4) All skills should have more uses (at least a page each), and should be examples.
5) Skill DCs should be based on guidelines (5 = very easy, 10 = every day, etc.).
6) Certain skills, as written, need to be completely overhauled (Diplomacy, Craft, etc.).

GENERAL
1) Too gonzo from the start (world record jumps at first level, anyone?).
2) Actions are too rigid. There should be advice or guidelines on performing actions not listed.
3) Characters have racial/societal/national/regional traits all based on racial pick.
4) Multiclassing is too linear (start at the bottom of the class you're going into), while also being too powerful at times.
5) All skills should be class skills.
6) Many abilities or checks are just too binary.
7) Number of and power of feats got out of control.
8) There should be no experience cost for anything.
9) Magic item system should be much more versatile than it is, while being less than the "choose an ability and eyeball it's equivalent 'plus' enhancement" than it is now.
10) Magic items should not need to be masterwork.
11) Items should have a DC / size chart to price, with guidelines on DC and size of items, allowing users to quickly look up prices of nearly anything.
12) Broken economy.
13) Items only having "regular and masterwork." I'd like to see "poor, regular, masterwork, masterpiece, and mastercraft."
14) The combat chapter should not be longer than the skills chapter.
15) Not enough broad tools given to determine random events, while also having too many niche random event tables.

 

[Hassassin]

• HP sometimes abstract, sometimes not*
• Numbers get too high - start lower and/or increase slower (PF even worse)
• Wealth and magic items assumed and tied to level
• High level spellcaster vs. non-spellcaster disparity
• Difference between levels too high - makes adventure design difficult
• Way too complex combat maneuver rules (PF better)
• Feat and skill tradeoffs in fluff vs. crunch
• Too many different types of bonuses
• Saving throw and BaB scaling
• Multi-class BaB and saves

*Abstract hp is fine, but the assumption that they also measure skill etc. breaks down when unconscious, falling, burning etc.

 

[Dragonblade]

Tome of Battle was the BEST 3e supplement. I won't play a 3e game without it.

That said here is what was broken or I despised in 3e:

Too many classes dependent on high scores in multiple abilities
Ability damage and buffs and the resulting cascade of numbers across the sheet
Boring fighters that just attack (later fixed by ToB)
Casters that make other class irrelevant (who needs a Rogue if you can cast Knock)
Melee characters with linear power progression vs. casters with geometric power progression
Random elements in character generation (I hate random stats and random HP)
Too many class abilities balanced per day instead of being at-will or per encounter
Vancian casting
Too many fiddly petty combat rules (crit confirmation rolls, double counting diagonal movement, etc.)
Iterative attacks
Save or Lose effects and spells
Non-self contained monsters that require me to look up their abilities in other books
Grapple/Sunder/Disarm rules (I hate the PF CMB rules just as much)
Christmas tree effect
Low level too weak, high level too powerful
Negative levels and Energy Drain
Too many different bonuses
Broken multi-classing
Etc.

 

[Gort]

Martial characters who simply cannot keep up with spellcasters.

Spells that negate adventures. (EG - "We must make a great journey!" Teleport)

Monsters don't work without serious rewriting to fit your party once you get to a certain level.

Ridiculous numbers of buffing spells with massive impacts on effectiveness, all of which have their own durations which must be tracked.

Combat becomes too long as you level up.