Things to do in a tabletop rpg that are not combat related?

[Bedrockgames]

I am wondering a couple things though.

1. I read that in like D&D 2e and previous there was no perception/spot check and you had to actually say what your doing in the room?

There were specific abilities like the thief had for detecting traps and elves detecting secret or hidden passages on a d6 roll. If you really dig into the DMG and PHB you also find little rules here and there for things. There was more of an emphasis on interacting with the scenery. So the elf might get that d6 roll automatically for just being near a secret panel, but they didn't want to discourage People from describing how they investigate a chamber (i look under the bed, or i turn the statue around). The approach to social interaction was similar. There wasnt a diplomacy or bluff skill in 2E. They had etiquette, but that was a knowledge roll (it specifically said it couldnt be used to replace roleplaying).

That said, ability checks were a big gap filler if you needed to roll for that sort of thing. So you might make a wisdom check to see people spot something. I 2E you just had to roll under your ability score to succeed (non-weapon proficiencies worked the same way).

There were also non-weapon proficiencies for non-combat (they were were optional) and two other optional skill methods.

 

[Joe Sumfin]

I just wanted to say thanks again for all the feedback I've gotten. You've given me food for thought and I bow to your creativity.

I'm just currently a player right now and prefer the RP mystery side and wouldn't mind playing an intrigue or plot heavy thing because as it sits I just follow along what the DM reads, sort of, go where he tells me to and deal with whatever obstacle comes up. Usually something combat related. 98% of the time at least.

He did say he turned a chase we had to do into a skill challenge of sorts, and no offense to him, it was ok but it all just came down to us all rolling like 3 times each and we got him. I was intrigued when he said skill challenge but the way he went about it got me less intrigued. I thought he was going to put us on like a city grid and have us actually try to find him or something but then I thought about that later and not sure that'd be fun. It'd be fun to me for a few minutes but it could drag out.

I'm mostly in a non-RP group. One guy loves to sandbox game and just throw curve balls. One guy likes to throw rules at the DM. 2 players are min-max'ers. The DM, when he did play was ok either way but likes plots, less mission based.

I'm just rambling and/or bitching.

I appreciate the advice and thanks all. =)

 

[Dungeoneer]

I just wanted to say thanks again for all the feedback I've gotten. You've given me food for thought and I bow to your creativity.

I'm just currently a player right now and prefer the RP mystery side and wouldn't mind playing an intrigue or plot heavy thing because as it sits I just follow along what the DM reads, sort of, go where he tells me to and deal with whatever obstacle comes up. Usually something combat related. 98% of the time at least.

He did say he turned a chase we had to do into a skill challenge of sorts, and no offense to him, it was ok but it all just came down to us all rolling like 3 times each and we got him. I was intrigued when he said skill challenge but the way he went about it got me less intrigued. I thought he was going to put us on like a city grid and have us actually try to find him or something but then I thought about that later and not sure that'd be fun. It'd be fun to me for a few minutes but it could drag out.

I'm mostly in a non-RP group. One guy loves to sandbox game and just throw curve balls. One guy likes to throw rules at the DM. 2 players are min-max'ers. The DM, when he did play was ok either way but likes plots, less mission based.

I'm just rambling and/or bitching.

I appreciate the advice and thanks all. =)

Skill challenges were introduced in Fourth Edition. The problem is that as they were presented there was something of a disconnect between the rules (roll a bunch of dice) and what they were trying to achieve (create cool, interactive non-combat encounters). Some of the later 4e adventures have more interesting examples of skill challenges. The community has also attempted to refine them. You should check out Critical Hits' advice for running skill challenges if somebody hasn't pointed you in that direction already.

But basically, skill challenges are a good idea that needs to be fleshed out. Some DMs are comfortable doing that, others are not. But I would definitely look at some of the examples you will find on Critical Hits, because they may give you ideas for how to approach non-combat scenarios like you describe. Even if you don't use them wholesale. For instance this person came up with a modified version of a skill challenge to simulate a drinking game.

 

[Greg K]

There's a book we published, Tournaments, Fairs & Taverns, which covers tournaments, fairs, and... well, taverns.

It is an excellent product.

 

[Ketherian]

I tried to find the book but couldn't. Will have to look some more later.

My question now is HOW do you run the festivals?

,,,

I'm just wondering how you play out the things that go on that aren't combat? Do you apply rolls to them and they need to actually roll to win or just RP it all out?

It depends. First off, in Harnmaster, everything (even combat) is a series of skill challenges.

In the case of the joust, I found a fan-written article that had me print out cards that showed the type of attack. Players picked a card and slammed it down simultaneously. They rolled against their ride skill to handle the animal and results were determined; but I also described it in detail - the pounding of the hooves on rough ground, the weight of the lance and shield on their back and shoulder, and of course - the imact. Did it knock someone off their horse, did they sway dangerously sideways, the weight of their armor bearing them down, etc.etc.etc.

Archery is more straight skill checks, progressively getting harder as the butt is moved further and further back; but there's the crowd's reaction, the waiting for their turn -- lots to describe.

With wrestling, I had them make some rolls then told them how it went (briefly) because it was getting late, and I was tired. I could have done straight unarmed combat between folk, but it was more interesting for all involved to hear the highlights than the blow-by-blow. Same with the footraces.

With the liturgy contests - it was memory (int) checks; a passage is read and the player-character has to finish it. Do they remember? Simple, but fun when they hear how people goof it up, or a few who get it almost right.

I kept rolls in the tourney events to keep the events random and to give the players a sense of control.

During the grand melee, it was almost all discussion of tactics. They figured out how to cross a field of "enemy combatants", keeping some occupied while others raced to the opposition's flag. There was one brief fight against the flag's guard, but most of that battle was discussions; moving icons on a map. I used a very simplified combat system to keep the event light (and because a successful hit meant the defender/attacker was out -- this was a mock combat after-all). So that one was almost entirely RP.

 

[Celebrim]

First of all, you can do anything in tabletop RPG you can imagine. And if you do it right, most things can be fun.

But before I get into that let me say that 4e style skill challenges is a terrible idea in most cases.

To understand why, let's just look at a very basic level how a PnP RPG works.

In general you have one or more players and one special player, the referee or game master who sets the stage or frames the scene. Players propose actions for their characters to attempt based on an understanding explicit or otherwise of the stakes, and then the results are randomized based on a fortune mechanic and the game master on the basis of the results of the player's fortune narrates an outcome or resolution that changes the scene or possibly leads to a new scene.

The exact system can very in a variaty of interesting ways. You can have explicit or implicit stakes. You can have a fortune that precedes the narration of the proposed action, or the narrated action can come before the fortune. You can have different sorts of fortune mechanics, and you can have the players take a role in narrating the outcome. But in overview, that's how a good PnP RPG works.

The problem with 4e style skill challenges are many. First, they abstract away any relationship between the players proposition and the outcome, so that it doesn't really matter what the player proposes the outcome is purely based on fortune. This is about as interesting as the card game 'war'. It reduces the system to something that barely takes any player input. Secondly, they propose a system where by the fortune - the odds of success - radically doesn't depend on the actions being undertaken but on an arbitrary generic structure with totally broken math. Thirdly, it substitutes the above organic evolving mutually creative process for a fixed framework. Fourthly, it produces a system that isn't 'cinematic' in the sense that doing normal process simulation like the above just naturally creates a story with many branching points and concrete scenes. You don't have to work to make it a story, it just becomes one. You either leapt over the pit, or you fell into it. Either outcome creates a visual impression in the imagination. Either outcome strongly encourages all participants to share in the imagined scene. A 4e skill challange just encourages participants to share in the really dull game system it is defined by.

That isn't to say you couldn't occassionally have a skill challenge that made sense, but that it would work very differently that 4e's skill challenge does by default. An example I've actually ran in a game back in 1992 before 3e was even a remote reality much less 4e, was an impromptu arm wrestling match between a PC and an NPC that fundamentally amounted to "gain 3 successes before the opponnent does". I adopted that because it seemed natural that an arm wrestling match worked that way, and made it obvious where the arms of the participants were. So yes, sometimes you'll need a skill challenge like mechanic, but most of the time it will just get in the way and destroy your game and the fun.

Don't try to create a generic system for resolving problems. Complex interrelating skill checks will evolve on their own if you just create complicated situations. Suppose for example you set a scene where its in the players benefit to get at least 5 of a cities 9 Aldermen to support the PC's in some initiative. This is a skill challenge in a sense, but its a wide open one. It could be resolved with something as simple as making conversation and 5 successful diplomacy roles. Or, it could be that each Alderman has a different set of conditions to persuade them - some are hard to persaude by diplomacy, but perhaps can be persuaded by blackmail, or bribery, or intimidation, or simply by successfully using Charm Person. Maybe some want to make bargains with the PC's, offering the vote in exchange for some service the PC's can provide - fetching a dingus, killing a foe, rescueing their daughter, etc. Maybe the PC's are in position to assassinate one and have him replaced. Different approaches will have different outcomes and repercussions and chances of success but either way you've got story naturally being created as a result of the play, and not added to a static system as an afterthought.

Ok, so things that I know you can do in an PnP RPG that are fun:

1) Have a Chase Scene: This is something like a skill challenge, in that it generally involves at a fundamental level getting more successes than failures over a time period, but its not really tightly structured like that. Also, keep them fairly short if you can, because dice rolling without signfiicant changes of scene is boring. Instead, think of the sort of things you've seen happen in a Holiwood chase scene and string together a series of mini-challenges. "The bad guys are getting away with the loot in a wagon, we've got to chase them.", creates a natural chase seen. "The assassin is on the roof!", creates another one. So does, "The monster is atop the princess's carriage" or conversely, "We're riding shotgun on the princess's carriage when its attacked by the dark overlord's elite cavalry!"

2) Investigate a Mystery: The classic non-combat challenge. Find the breadcrumb trail that leads you to be able to open up a door, pass judgement on who is the enemy, and find the missing whatsit. Remember as the game master to follow the 'three clue rule'.

3) Compete in a contest: Arm wrestling, chariot racing, gladiatorial combat where putting on a good show is as important as winning, aerobatic pegasi contest,

4) Get to know NPCs: A lot of the joy of a good PnP RPG is thespian. Being in character, exploring your character, in relationships with colorful NPC foils, rivals, friends, enemies, paramours, servants and leiges with their own quirks and agendas.

5) Help a poor widow maintain her farm: Again, this is something like a skill challenge, but its not got an arbitrary format. It's more like, "Tend the animals", "Harvest the crop", "Weed the vegetable garden, but don't get bit by the rattlesnake.", "Get rid of the moles.", "Remove the wasp nest from the outhouse.", and "kill the giant rat under the hen coop" Combat, spells, skill use, and simple hard work resolves the problem. Situations like this where you resolve ordinary problems are great at low levels, for small children, and as changes of pace. Tailor things like this to the players interests. Some players want to 'make a difference'. Others just want 'phenomal cosmic power'. Players that want to 'make a difference' don't always just enjoy killing bad guys in ways that seem barely different than robbery and murder of guys with black hats.

6) Explore the world: Much of the joy of an RPG is finding surprising, clever, complicated and wonderful things that the GM has put into his game that makes it seem alive and real.

7) Survive Hardships: One game I wouldn't mind running would start with a shipwreck, and the PC's being the sole survivors stranded on a remote island with basically no equipment. Figuring out where to find water, food, shelter, and ultimately tools and weapons would I think make a great low level campaign. One thing I'd love about it is just how important any Craft skill you had would be. Just getting a good night's sleep would be a challenge at first.

8) Mass Combat: Run a large battle using a mass combat system of some sort, with the players 'commanding' the troops. This is another sort of sitaution where you want and abstract system rather than trying to apply the normal skirmish rules to 10,000 fighting individuals, but where you don't want anything like a 4e skill challenge because the system that works is one that is tactical, positional, and visual. You want the players to be able to see the charge of the cavalry, the flank being overwhelmed, and so forth. You don't want to be narrating a thin tacked on story layer to the sytem as an after thought. You want the system to actively create the story.

9) Figure out puzzles, or answer riddles: Sometimes its fun to make the skill challenge actually challenge the players rather than the characters. Ideally these should be fairly short and involve every player able to contribute ideas. Mazes are bad ideas (they take too long to be interesting) and chess probably is as well (only one player is really playing). But there are plenty of little puzzles you can put into your game organically (repair a derelict ship to keep it from sinking, bypass a trap) or inorganically (a riddling door, a puzzle to open a treasure box). If you know your players are particularly good at something, put that in the game.

 

[Herobizkit]

Anything that gives you and the players a tie to the campaign world is almost always successful (it tends to be less successful if the DM runs pre-generated 'modules' as many are designed to be play-and-forget).

That said, consider the campaign I'm playing in now. At level one, the PC's started on a prison island. I was playing a lowly clerk who got out of menial labour by being a brown-nose who was good with paperwork and languages. Using said paperwork, he was able to identify a couple of folks who were unjustly imprisoned (including the other players), rallied them together and stages a boat robbery.

We sailed for a month, dealing with bad weather, monster attacks, low food supplies, and one ship-on-ship battle that doubled our strength. We sailed into (what essentially was) a pirate's cove, whereupon we learned that there were two main "gangs" in the city - one who ran business like a Mafia (using toughs/muscle and intimidation, gaining respect out of fear), and one who ran business like the Triads (running "white-collar" crimes, controlling the money and import/exports and generally leaving the non-gang members alone, gaining respect by keeping the Mafia in check). When we arrived, the "Mafia" were gaining ground and the very reclusive Mayor supported them.

Team PC took it upon themselves to find out why the Mayor was so reclusive; through Stealth, Diplomacy, and Streetwise, we learned that someone was rallying a horde of Wererats in the sewers and capturing Crown soldiers to make more. We put a stop to it, learned the Mayor had been replaced by a Changeling, removed him, and promptly took over the city - all without the city's populace catching wise.

From the shadows of the mayoral estate, we explored this new land and discovered tribes of assorted races, all living on their own, all trying to avoid the heavy hand of the Crown Empire and their puritan ways (the Empire is a Monarchy who believes in the purity of their bloodline and abhor anything non-human; while they create no active campaigns against humanoids, they make no qualms of crushing any who impede their expansion).

So, being slaves ourselves, we weren't happy with other races being looked down upon and chose to rally them to our own banner. We made roads. Forts. Created and explored mines. Met Underdark folks. Gathered resources. Eventually, we came to forge a "province" of assorted Humanoids, all working together-ish for mutually assured assistance. Then the Emperor showed up, patted us on the head and said 'keep it up' as long as we could assure that the Humanoids weren't going to be an issue.

This took us to level 9. We're now investigating a rival country with rumours of war preparations.

Much of the activity involved in all of this required no fighting; we played many 4-5 hour sessions where all we did was talk and run skill checks.

One player's character is a Thri-Kreen who is a "Japanese tourist". Everything he sees, he wants to somehow make part of himself. He has learned skills, feats, and powers that are very similar to my own (as a Human Hexblade) and our other player, who is playing a Goliath Druid in the style of Aang from Avatar: The Last Airbender (a man-child with an elemental-themed destiny who is to accomplish a great deed before unlocking his full potential).

Phew.

I guess that's long-winded, but I wanted to show you how a series of random events (as the DM is running a fairly loose sandbox-style adventure) can turn into a large campaign involving a lot more than "go here, fight that".

 

[ExiStanc3]

All very good answers and advices here.

If I may about the tournament ... Why is there one? Why are your characters taking part in it? Who's organizing it? What is at stake here? What if your players win it? What if they loose? Are there many sides involved in it? And why? On which sides are your players? Why?

Answer those questions and suddlendly you'll have a LOT for your players to do. Don't play a tournament scene. Create a context around about a tournament, with things happening before and after, and you've got yourself a story!!!

Good luck.

 

[Herobizkit]

If I may about the tournament ... Why is there one? Why are your characters taking part in it? Who's organizing it? What is at stake here? What if your players win it? What if they loose? Are there many sides involved in it? And why? On which sides are your players? Why?

If you're going for intrigue, one idea could be that the local Lord called all of the land's Champions into one spot to help tip the scales for another Lord waiting to attack their common enemy(the same Lord is mysteriously missing from the event, and no Champions from his lands are represented - this would be the hint for the PCs to learn more).

 

[ExiStanc3]

If you're going for intrigue, one idea could be that the local Lord called all of the land's Champions into one spot to help tip the scales for another Lord waiting to attack their common enemy(the same Lord is mysteriously missing from the event, and no Champions from his lands are represented - this would be the hint for the PCs to learn more).

Or is it? Maybe the tournament is for the recruitment of assassins in a secret society that works for the power in place? And maybe the group is investigating that society and the links it has with some previous plots they were following?

More seriously, what I mean is that the real challenge, the excitement should be about the outcome of the tournament, not rolling the dices ... You need stakes, not mechanic.

 

[Quickleaf]

I just wanted to say thanks again for all the feedback I've gotten. You've given me food for thought and I bow to your creativity.

I'm just currently a player right now and prefer the RP mystery side and wouldn't mind playing an intrigue or plot heavy thing because as it sits I just follow along what the DM reads, sort of, go where he tells me to and deal with whatever obstacle comes up. Usually something combat related. 98% of the time at least.

He did say he turned a chase we had to do into a skill challenge of sorts, and no offense to him, it was ok but it all just came down to us all rolling like 3 times each and we got him. I was intrigued when he said skill challenge but the way he went about it got me less intrigued. I thought he was going to put us on like a city grid and have us actually try to find him or something but then I thought about that later and not sure that'd be fun. It'd be fun to me for a few minutes but it could drag out.

I'm mostly in a non-RP group. One guy loves to sandbox game and just throw curve balls. One guy likes to throw rules at the DM. 2 players are min-max'ers. The DM, when he did play was ok either way but likes plots, less mission based.

I'm just rambling and/or bitching.

I appreciate the advice and thanks all. =)

That's how most of us got started DMing, playing in a game and thinking "shoot, I'd like to be the one behind the screen!"

I am in an RP-light group (both power gamers & new players figuring out how to roleplay) and, despite being a hardcore story* GM, I have learned to enjoy it for what it is and be satisfied with the bits of character-acting and non-combat conflict resolution that I can throw in.


* Disclaimer: I'm not using "story GM" in the sense that a lot of folks on here do, as in a "railroad GM." I mean I like a diversity of challenges besides combat, interesting character backgrounds with characters not named Joe, challenges that tie into those backgrounds, mysteries to uncover, creative problem-solving, and a sense of dramatic tension interwoven with the game while it is being played.

 

[Bluenose]

The Skill Challenges are more along the lines of what I was looking for.

Something not combat related the the PC's can still do. A lot of you spoke about running mysteries and stuff but I asked more specifically about how to run something like a tournment that the PC's attend.

Say the tournament has a strength test, a boxing match, basketball? and ... jousting?

How would you run those specifically? Just make them into skills challenges? I really don't like the idea of roll a d20, anything above 10 and you win. Thats not fun or really interactive at all where they actually have a stake in the matter.

A boxing match could be just a fight non leathal using targeted hits vs their cmd or something. Thats still combat related but eh.

Anyways, thanks for all the feedback and the links and the info on skill challenges.

I'm pretty sure that the rules for Trollball are available online - they admittedly are written for Runequest, but I think it would be possible to adapt them to D&D. It's a good example of how to run a sport using RPG rules.

As for contests, another example would be the Garhound Contest - specifically the Harvest Queen version - that appeared as a scenario in a Runequest sourcebook - Sun County, I think. While it will not be entirely usable rules-wise, it's got some options for things that might be appropriate for a variety of contests. For that matter, there's the scenario in Borderlands where the PCs are trying to win the right to stay at an oasis, which has several contests involving things other than combat. Again, the rules would need some adaptation, but I don't think it would be hard to do.

 

[ExiStanc3]

* Disclaimer: I'm not using "story GM" in the sense that a lot of folks on here do, as in a "railroad GM." I mean I like a diversity of challenges besides combat, interesting character backgrounds with characters not named Joe, challenges that tie into those backgrounds, mysteries to uncover, creative problem-solving, and a sense of dramatic tension interwoven with the game while it is being played.

I'm quite new to this board, but .... seriously? You need to put such a disclaimer? Do most people "railroad" here?
Because what you describe is really the type of play I enjoy. I wouldn't do otherwise.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm quite new to this board, but .... seriously? You need to put such a disclaimer? Do most people "railroad" here?
Because what you describe is really the type of play I enjoy. I wouldn't do otherwise.

There's a debate, I guess you could call it, over what "Story" means when applied to RPGs. For some people it's a dirty word has implications that I don't normally give it. However, while I do respect that point of view, I think it's just semantics...hence my disclaimer.

Anyhow, back to the thread!

 

[gamerprinter]

Like festivals, a wedding and a funeral were the start of 2 different campaigns of mine in the past. The wedding was the binding of 2 politically active families, once at war with the other, but their treaty ended with a wedding. Of course for some of the family members this was only a different kind of intrigue, not really a settlement of issues between families. Following the funeral campaign start was the reading of a will, and a gifted item that became a MacGuffin for the adventure party, and the jealous parties not connected with the PC party, but were relatives of the deceased, were not at odds with the PCs. Such events make for great activities and the start to political issues head on.

Regarding skill challenges, I generally run something similar, but not so formulaic. Most are roleplaying activities, followed by a skill check with a modifier based on well or poorly the roleplayed conversation went, PCs adding any cool ideas to the conversation get bonuses. Most such activities take more than one skill check, but I play it by ear. Some challenges a single successful skill check is good enough, for others it might be a half dozen depending on the complexity of the activity (whatever that is.)

Sometimes I create a mystery play situation where several people have clues on what really happened, but each person has different clues and are not aware of the other clues known by other people. In other words, a simple successful Knowledge (local) skill check after some roleplay with one individual gets you his clues, but you need to talk to each individual with the own clues, to see the whole picture. No matter how successful a given skill check or series of skill checks, if you don't talk to the right people, or only some of the people you will not get all the clues. There's no automatic resolution with any one person - you'll need to find all the clues.

 

[gamerprinter]

The haunt mechanic in Pathfinder is considered by many GMs as some kind of undead influenced trap, and not that it isn't, but I consider haunts as plot hooks, and a great tool to get some non-combat activity going on in your game. Below is a comment by one of the reviewers for my #30 Haunts for Kaidan by T. H. Gulliver of Rite Publishing.

Aaron H. one of the reviewers for #30 Haunts for Kaidan commented:

This is where this supplement really shined! The storylines (based on ancient Japanese ghost stories) are what I found the most impressive. I was actually acquainted with the basis of the storylines introduced, having seen several Japanese horror movies and having played in many oriental settings. It wasn’t the originality of the storylines that got me, it was the association of the storylines with the haunts. It is easy to just throw undead at an adventuring party, developing a story behind why the undead are there and providing a solution to excising those undead, makes playing a Cleric so much more than a healer/turner. I recommend that every GM pick up this product and figure out how to place interesting haunts into their game as plot hooks.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I am wondering if my group is just hack'n'slash. We have 6 players, could maybe be 7. 2 are power players, 1 likes sandbox, 1 doesn't really care to much and like 2-3 of us kind of prefer RP'ing rather than crunching numbers.

Find a different game than D&D I'd suggest. D&D is very combat heavy - find something that gives as much weight to non-combat solutions as it does to combat ones. It's what the rules point you at; they give more weight to combat than anything else except spellcasting (and that mostly for combat). [MENTION=23240]steenan[/MENTION]'s already suggested Fate Core, Smallville, and Mouse Guard. To that I'd add Apocalypse World, Leverage, Hillfolk, Nobilis, and Fiasco. Monsterhearts if you feel up to it (many won't, for good reason).

2. What are some things you can do in a table top RPG that are not combat related? Like I've read you can have PC's goto a tournament. Do they compete? What can they compete in?

Hmm... just current experiences for me.

Last night in my Firefly game, (not linked because this is the playtest version) the PCs were in a cheat-like-there's-no-tomorrow boat race. Which included trying to drive their boat, trying to keep it afloat, trying to investigate the other crews to work out how they would cheat, trying to shame the race organiser into giving them their winnings, and above all trying to stay afloat in the boat race enough to win - which included when they were sinking and the only boat in front of them had no engines, driving their boat up the other one's back and using its bouyancy to keep theirs afloat long enough to cross the line. Meanwhile when their boat was invaded by drunks jumping on, the drunk doctor invited two of them to join him at the bar (in the water) through persuasion while the third person on the boat kept hold of the last one so they had a full crew. Very easy to run.

Currently in my Monsterhearts play by forum game, my Queen is trying to rig a ballot (naturally), to rescue her best friend from as many of the problems as she can from becoming pregnant, to stay friends with everyone. She's currently in darkest self and in a confession where she's trying to bring down the priest she's confessing to - or to find a way out of darkest self. Oh, and to redeem the soul of an angel, to bring down a demon that's destroyed worlds, and try and avoid the attention of one of the Old Gods, all while keeping her grades up and concealing her dyslexia, and dealing with her budding psychic powers. And the thing her best friend is pregnant with is spawn of the demon that has destroyed worlds. Number of times she's physically lashed out at someone in the campaign so far: once (one attack roll. It was a mistake - but what should you do when you're woken up outside the boys' dormitories having been summoned by black magic because the demon's rebellious servant (another PC) both has a crush on you and wants your help?)

But before I get into that let me say that 4e style skill challenges is a terrible idea in most cases.

You're confusing the initial guidance (terrible) with the mechanics themselves, which [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and I (and many of the other 4e fans) use very successfully. But we use them as improv and pacing mechanics.

The problem with 4e style skill challenges are many. First, they abstract away any relationship between the players proposition and the outcome, so that it doesn't really matter what the player proposes the outcome is purely based on fortune.

This is false. Skill challenges do not abstract away character skill - they use the skill of the character. They do not abstract away the difficulty of what the character is being attempted in the short run, they merely group it into easy, medium, and hard. Player skill is setting such things up.

Secondly, they propose a system where by the fortune - the odds of success - radically doesn't depend on the actions being undertaken

This is false. See point 1.

Thirdly, it substitutes the above organic evolving mutually creative process for a fixed framework.

You say organic as if that is necessarily a good thing. Slime moulds, the smallpox virus, hemlock, and cancer are all organic. And most of them are pretty bad things.

Most experienced GMs do not need skill challenges. If they are any good at all, they have a decent handle on pacing and difficulty. On the other hand such tools are extremely useful for novice GMs who do not want to be thrown in the deep end and with a splash of common sense can be used by experienced GMs.

Fourthly, it produces a system that isn't 'cinematic' in the sense that doing normal process simulation like the above just naturally creates a story with many branching points and concrete scenes.

This is false. You have exactly the same number of branching points in a skill challenge as you do in an equivalent number of skill rolls. Because a skill challenge contains an equivalent number of skill rolls, each of which is a skill roll and changes the fiction in exactly the way a skill roll should.

A 4e skill challange just encourages participants to share in the really dull game system it is defined by.

Or tells the DM they can easily handle the mechanical side of whatever insanity the PCs can come up with without needing to slow things down much. And thereby allows a new DM to run anarchy while still being supported by the rules.

Skill challenges are like scaffolding. Scaffolding makes ugly buildings. But that's because scaffolding isn't meant to be a building. It's to allow you to build a building underneath it much more easily.

Don't try to create a generic system for resolving problems.

Abolish skill checks and skill systems! After all those are generic systems for resolving problems.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm quite new to this board, but .... seriously? You need to put such a disclaimer? Do most people "railroad" here?
Because what you describe is really the type of play I enjoy. I wouldn't do otherwise.

There was a system that was very popular in the 90s known as the Storyteller System (you've probably heard of Vampire: the Masquerade which was a part of it) in which the GM was known as the Storyteller. And most of the published adventures for Vampire were complete railroads. With the PCs following round and under the thumb of much more powerful NPCs. The Storyteller system did a lot of things very right but one of the things it did very wrong was having the GM write the story and force the PCs into it. That's strike 1 against the word story by many people.

For strike 2 you have to fast forward to about 2003 and the publication of an Indy Game known as "My Life With Master" Unlike most prior RPGs, My Life With Master has a beginning, a middle, and an end - it's gothic horror rather than aimed at campaign play. Hubris and terror followed by a fall. It also has only two stats from memory. And because its design was so non-traditional a lot of people decided to declare it wasn't a 'real' RPG. So some people shrugged and decided to call it a Storygame instead and some subsequent games have decided to call themselves storygames - and there's a forum that calls itself Story-games. A few years later there are others who take games under the RPG umbrella not being called an RPG as an affront (and one disappointingly popular blogger claims that there's a conspiracy of Storygaming SWINE out to ruin the hobby).

So yeah, the term "story" is a loaded term in a number of RPG circles. I wouldn't worry about it. Everyone is out to write and play games they find fun and interesting. There are just a few people who hate that others have fun that isn't like their fun.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6774800]Joe Sumfin[/MENTION]

If you're interested in using skill challenges for resolving non-combat conflicts, here are some links to actual replay reports.

Also, don't pay attention to posts like this:

Except skill challenges are very bad at what they do.

<snip>

they also devolve every problem in the game into "roll the highest skill you can get away with until it goes away".

If you want to learn how to use a system like skill challengs to improve your game, take advice from those who are using them effectively, not from those who don't know how they're meant to work.

Here is a summary of the key process for running a skill challenge (taken from the 4e PHB and DMG, plus some posts from [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] on these boards):

A skill challenge is defined by its context in an adventure. Remember, skill challenges are a framework to help resolve conflicts. If there’s no more conflict – if nothing bad can happen to the PCs, if they are okay with what’s happening, if there’s no reason for them to roll – then the skill challenge is over. Conversely, we know that the skill challenge is still ongoing if bad things will happen to the PCs unless they succeed at their skill rolls.

Whatever the details of a skill challenge, the basic structure of a skill challenge is straightforward: the goal is to accumulate a specific number of victories (usually in the form of successful skill checks) before getting too many defeats (three failed checks). The GM determines the level and complexity of the skill challenge.

The DM sets the stage for a skill challenge by describing the situation (including defining the PCs’ goal), describing the obstacle(s) the PCs face to accomplish their goal, and giving the players some idea of the options they have in the encounter. The DM then describes the environment, listens to the players’ responses, lets them make their skill checks, and narrates the results. Depending on the success or failure of a player’s check, the DM describes the consequences and goes on to the next action.

The players describe their PCs’ actions and make checks until they either successfully complete the challenge or fail. Remember that all checks that are not secondary skill checks count towards success and failure. But if one PC has been successful at more of his checks, s/he will end up in a different situation from the rest of the group once the skill challenge resolves (even if the skill challenge overall ends up in failure).

It’s up to the players to think of ways to use their PCs’ skills to meet the challenges they face. In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that the DM didn’t expect to play a role. When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. Try not to say no. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it. This encourages players to think about the challenge in more depth. However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation. The DM should ask what exactly the character might be doing. Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge.​

The most important things are:

(1) The fiction comes first - skill checks correspond to the PC attempting something in the fiction;

(2) The GM has to narrate outcomes so as to keep the challenge alive, but moving towards some sort of climactic outcome. Handling that pacing aspect - keeping up the pressure, so the players still have a reason to declare checks and roll, but moving towards a satisfying resolution (whether success or failure) - is the GMing challenge in a skill challenge; much like, in combat, the GM challenge is working out fun and clever tactics for the monsters/NPCs.

The examples I linked to give some illustrations of this in practice.

 

[Derren]

the goal is to accumulate a specific number of victories (usually in the form of successful skill checks) before getting too many defeats (three failed checks). The GM determines the level and complexity of the skill challenge.

And that is exactly where skill challenges fail.
The goal should be to solve the problem you are facing no matter how many rolls that takes. That allows for a lot more flexibility and verisimilitude than skill challenges.

It’s up to the players to think of ways to use their PCs’ skills to meet the challenges they face. In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that the DM didn’t expect to play a role. When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. Try not to say no. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it.

As I said: "Roll the highest skill you can get away with".
Skill challenges detract from the actual in game situation by making not the solution of whatever problem the PCs face the goal, but to rack up enough successful skill rolls so that the problem goes away.