Pathfinder 1E This has been asked many times....Advanced Fire Arms -- Rapid Reload

[delericho]

In the Sharpe TV series (and, I therefore presume, the novels), when asked what makes a good soldier, Sharpe replies "The ability to fire three rounds a minute in any weather, sir." And that's using early 19th century rifles and muskets, well outside the assumed D&D timeframe. (And, incidentally, he was talking about trained characters here, so we should assume Proficiency, though not necessarily any Rapid Reload type ability.)

The consequence of that is that if we're going to use even remotely 'realistic' firearms, multi-round reload times are basically a must-have. By all means, allow high level Fighters to speed this up (even to blatantly superhuman proportions), and/or include magical or other fantastical items that are faster, but your basic starting point needs to be multi-round loading...

Of course, that assumes a 6-second combat round. The other option is of course to switch (back) to a 1-minute round, and allow characters to fire every round (and better trained/high level characters to fire multiple times per round).

If that's the feel you're looking for, then it works for that game. It does not allow for the character whose signature weapon is a firearm, so that feel is denied.

That's true.

Essentially, I think you can have:

- 6 second combat rounds
- 'realistic' firearms
- characters whose signature weapons are firearms.

Pick two.

 

[ggeilman]

To each his own I guess. I can see some settings where a Gunslinger may be appropriate, just not in most traditional settings IMHO. Now if you are playing an Eberron type setting all bets are off. To me it was not a good idea to add gunpowder to a D&D type ruleset. Pathfinder is licensed under OGL after all. It should have some continuity. Now maybe adding a few single shot pistols in a pirate type setting would be good for flavor, but not the basis for its own class. They knew this was going to get a lot of resistance which is why they left it to the DM/GM to decide the appropriateness to the campaign. I will be running Razor Coast when it comes out so in that particular setting then yes it will be allowed. No modern weapons I am sure.

 

[ggeilman]

In the Sharpe TV series (and, I therefore presume, the novels), when asked what makes a good soldier, Sharpe replies "The ability to fire three rounds a minute in any weather, sir." And that's using early 19th century rifles and muskets, well outside the assumed D&D timeframe. (And, incidentally, he was talking about trained characters here, so we should assume Proficiency, though not necessarily any Rapid Reload type ability.)

The consequence of that is that if we're going to use even remotely 'realistic' firearms, multi-round reload times are basically a must-have. By all means, allow high level Fighters to speed this up (even to blatantly superhuman proportions), and/or include magical or other fantastical items that are faster, but your basic starting point needs to be multi-round loading...

Of course, that assumes a 6-second combat round. The other option is of course to switch (back) to a 1-minute round, and allow characters to fire every round (and better trained/high level characters to fire multiple times per round).



That's true.

Essentially, I think you can have:

- 6 second combat rounds
- 'realistic' firearms
- characters whose signature weapons are firearms.

Pick two.

I would forgo the last. In another episode, it shows Sharpe training them to do a Rapid Reload to get that 3 rounds per minutes so yes I would presume the rapid reload feat. It is historical also based on the fire rates of the Revolutionary War. The fire rate for a musket was 3/min and 2/min for a rifle. The historical unit Sharpe was based on developed a technique to fire 3. FYI, I have my degree in American History which is why a lot of this bugs me!
Of course, I would not object to going back to the 1 minute melee round. It always worked for me.

 

[N'raac]

So we find it wholly unrealistic that the Gunslinger can fire and reload in 6 seconds (faster with rapid reload), but it's OK that a mid level fighter can swing a solid Greatsword attack every 2 seconds (11th level, 3 attacks per round), or an archer can manage what, 5 (3 + rapid shot + many shot) - 1 a second at L16.

 

[ggeilman]

It is not the firing of the weapons I find unrealistic, but the reloading. I can name at least 10 shooters that can fire 10 pistol, 10 rifle and 4 shot gun against 24 targets w/o a miss in less than 20 seconds with 4 guns with the equivalent of the modern firearms.
Also Lars showed that he could easily fire 3 arrows in just over a second and beat William Tell's record of firing 10 arrows before the first hit the ground (he fired 11).
And taking 3 swings in 6 seconds with advanced training with a sword, not an issue.
But putting powder and ball into a muzzle and then ramming it down with a ramrod can only be done so fast. In a cartridge rifle, demonstration teams commonly fire 10 rounds per minute in single shot rifles from a standing position. So I would say that if it is an advanced cartridge firearm, yes it could be done, just not with early firearms that are muzzle loading black powder and ball.

 

[Herobizkit]

I've read so many threads till I was blue in the face.....And I have NOT found anything conclusive on whether or not Rapid Reload makes advanced firearms load faster than a move action.

From the srd, the Rapid Reload feat states:

The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).

I assume an advanced firearm still counts as a firearm, be it one- or two-handed.

... and a gentle reminder that any argument about the realism of guns can be countered with "It's a ranged weapon with ammunition that does X damage with a Y range increment."

 

[delericho]

So we find it wholly unrealistic that the Gunslinger can fire and reload in 6 seconds (faster with rapid reload), but it's OK that a mid level fighter can swing a solid Greatsword attack every 2 seconds (11th level, 3 attacks per round), or an archer can manage what, 5 (3 + rapid shot + many shot) - 1 a second at L16.

What level of Gunslinger?

I think it's important to recognise that by about 6th level, D&D (Pathfinder) characters are strictly superhuman - even the "non-magical" ones. So there's no issue with realism when an 11th level Fighter gets to attack 3 times in 6 seconds with his greatsword - what we have is a superhuman character doing superhuman things. (Conversely, if it were a 1st level Fighter attacking three times in 6 seconds, that would be an issue.)

When talking about the need for multi-round reload times for primitive firearms, then, I'm only ever talking about them when in the hands of a low-level character. I have absolutely no problem with a high-level character turning his iterative attacks into a progressively faster reload and/or using feats to achieve the same. (Again, that's a superhuman character doing superhuman things.) But if a first level character can fire more than three times per minute (four with Rapid Reload, or equivalent), then that's a problem.

 

[delericho]

... and a gentle reminder that any argument about the realism of guns can be countered with "It's a ranged weapon with ammunition that does X damage with a Y range increment."

You missed out "and requires Z time to reload". Which is where the argument is actually centred.

 

[N'raac]

What level of Gunslinger?

I think it's important to recognise that by about 6th level, D&D (Pathfinder) characters are strictly superhuman - even the "non-magical" ones. So there's no issue with realism when an 11th level Fighter gets to attack 3 times in 6 seconds with his greatsword - what we have is a superhuman character doing superhuman things. (Conversely, if it were a 1st level Fighter attacking three times in 6 seconds, that would be an issue.)

When talking about the need for multi-round reload times for primitive firearms, then, I'm only ever talking about them when in the hands of a low-level character. I have absolutely no problem with a high-level character turning his iterative attacks into a progressively faster reload and/or using feats to achieve the same. (Again, that's a superhuman character doing superhuman things.) But if a first level character can fire more than three times per minute (four with Rapid Reload, or equivalent), then that's a problem.

Let's put the characters at 11th level. The Archer Fighter is firing 5 arrows per round, 3 at top BAB, 1 at -5 and 1 at -10, before the -2 for Rapid Shot. How many pistol shots, with the same 1d8 base damage as a longbow, should the gunslinger, whether that class or a fighter specialized in guns, be able to fire? How many feats should he be required to invest to get there? Assuming he also takes Rapid Shot, but takes Rapid Reload instead of Manyshot (since Manyshot only works with bows), he's spent the same number of feats as the archer and gets one less shot.

 

[delericho]

Let's put the characters at 11th level. The Archer Fighter is firing 5 arrows per round, 3 at top BAB, 1 at -5 and 1 at -10, before the -2 for Rapid Shot. How many pistol shots, with the same 1d8 base damage as a longbow, should the gunslinger, whether that class or a fighter specialized in guns, be able to fire? How many feats should he be required to invest to get there? Assuming he also takes Rapid Shot, but takes Rapid Reload instead of Manyshot (since Manyshot only works with bows), he's spent the same number of feats as the archer and gets one less shot.

It's actually quite difficult for me to answer that, because I'd come at the issue from an entirely different point - start by setting the damage, weapon type, and rate of fire assuming a 1st level Fighter, and then scale up to 11th level.

However, in this instance I would be inclined to say it's actually about right. Especially if the pistol is classed as a Simple weapon compared with the archer's Martial longbow (which, if firearms are relatively common, it probably should be).

And on the other, other hand, I would actually argue that the big problem here is actually the Manyshot feat, which I didn't like when it was introduced in 3.5e, and don't really like here, either. That one really is quite absurd - methinks Andy Collins may have watched "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves" one too many times.