Pathfinder 1E This is why pathfinder has been successful.

[Ampersand999]

I think another reason why Paizo is perhaps doing relatively much better than Wizards is because Paizo was able to make pdf versions (and other things) of their products work, and work very well. And not just their Pathfinder brand, but other things like their GameMastery supplement map business (love those compact map cards), miniatures, and so on. They even have a halfway decent subscription program that involves actually purchasing product on a consistent basis.

Wizards punted on the .pdf thing, they've only really started creating supplement cards, and it doesn't look like their miniatures are actually selling all that well. DDI is running, (and I am a member), but it takes a while for it to work well, and it's not really connected to actually purchasing their products. (Which is good for me, but probably bad for Wizards.)

It's not that Paizo is doing something and Wizards isn't, it's that the quality of the main work and their supplements are consistently better with Paizo and less so with Wizards. And that's being reflected in the perception and business practices of both companies.

 

[Water Bob]

Call of Cthulu? Mostly adventures, surely. And a lot of games publish mostly setting sourcebooks, not rule books.

There are exceptions, of course. I can think of another: WEG's Star Wars RPG using the D6 mechanic. Beautiful game system supported by a tone of adventures.

But, these are the exceptions. The majority of the rpgs out there are published rules heavy, adventure lite.

I remember when Fading Suns came out, first as its own system, then as a d20 game. I kept waiting for some adventues to hit the shelves, but they didn't. And, I never bought the game.

Tons of games are like that--there will be a few sourcebooks published but it's left up to the GM to create the scenarios on his own (which isn't a bad thing--I like creating my own stuff as well as running published adventures).

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I'm not talking about everything d20, I'm looking at just what Wizards did. They did the system. They allowed everyone else to do adventures and the settings. But the conversation isn't about all the third party publishers it was just about Wizards strategy and their books verse what Pathfinder is doing now.

And while 3e does have setting and adventures it is not as focused on them as Pathfinder is solely focused on Golarion. Wizards has 2 or 3 rule books for each adventure wile Pathfinder has to have at least 6 or so adventures to each rule book.

I think you're right about WotC not doing much more than the system. They had a few good adventures and a touch of setting material for forgotten realms, eberron and quite a bit for living grehawk. That was about it.


I think the reason why everyone keeps bringing up the 3pps is that THEY REALLY MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

No, WotC didn't publish Dungeon, Dragon, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, etc. etc. However, I think the point made is that a system NEEDS good adventures. 3e had them. Pathfinder has them. 4e, not nearly so much focus there by WotC OR by 3pps.

I don't really know much of anything about Golarion, but I have a ton of Paizo adventures, including every AP book all the way back to Rise of the Runelords. I don't care much about the setting (though, from what I've seen of it is quite well done).

But, I think the OP is making the statement that rules are less important than great stories. People will buy the rules to play in those stories.

This WAS the case with 3e. People bought WotC's rules to play in Paizo, Necromancer Games, Green Ronin, Goodman Games, etc etc worlds.


The reason 3e was successful was the OGL. The reason that mattered so much was because of adventures.

 

[DDogwood]

I think another reason why Paizo is perhaps doing relatively much better than Wizards is because Paizo was able to make pdf versions (and other things) of their products work, and work very well. And not just their Pathfinder brand, but other things like their GameMastery supplement map business (love those compact map cards), miniatures, and so on. They even have a halfway decent subscription program that involves actually purchasing product on a consistent basis.

This is kind of what I was saying earlier. I don't know the numbers, but if Pathfinder died tomorrow, I suspect that Paizo would be able to survive as a company - probably long enough to find a new niche in the market. Many of their products, even ones that are Pathfinder-branded, are good generic gaming supplements. They also get a certain amount of revenue by selling other companies' products, which Wizards doesn't do at all (and I doubt Hasbro would let them).

Wizards has been leveraging the D&D brand in non-RPG ways for years, and that seems to be increasing.

Whether the companies are surviving on adventures or rules, I really doubt that either of those makes what would be a significant revenue in almost any other field, even many other "niche" hobbies.

 

[JoeGKushner]

And Chaosium is not a very profitable company, to boot.

A shame, CoC is my favourite game. Apart from WFRP that is.

/M

Gets ready to duck...

How much of that is Chaosium's fault though?

Other comapnies have taken Cthulhu bits and run wild and free with them. Chaosium has a bad, terrible, crazy habbit of not being able to make their goals or captilize on events that could push them through.

The biggest one I can think of is Pulp Cthulhu. Other companies were able to do it with a completely different game system. Did the BRP version ever come out? I gave up looking after a while.

And don't forget Delta Green! Or the great job Fantasy Flight has done. Or Goodman Games...

 

[billd91]

Gets ready to duck...

How much of that is Chaosium's fault though?

I'd also say a lot has to do with Lovecraftian horror being a niche appeal, a niche significantly smaller than D&D-style fantasy role playing.

 

[Zaukrie]

I didn't read the whole thread, but since the rules are largely OGL rules that they did not need to spend 5 years creating (but are now admittedly tweaking), I'd think that they don't have the seem need to make money off of the rules as another company would, that has to spend time creating the rules from scratch.

That said, I do think the biggest downfall for 4E was the lack of story tying it together. We all play for the stories, not for the rules (ok, "all" is likely an exaggeration). And WotC's decision to largely leave that in the hands of every individual DM was a mistake, imo.

 

[Rogue Agent]

I didn't read the whole thread, but since the rules are largely OGL rules that they did not need to spend 5 years creating (but are now admittedly tweaking), I'd think that they don't have the seem need to make money off of the rules as another company would, that has to spend time creating the rules from scratch.

First: We're talking about the emphasis of supplemental products. I'm not sure what the development time of the core rulebook has to do with the emphasis of the supplement line.

Second: I don't know where "5 years" comes from. The development cycle of 2E, 3E, and 4E were all roughly in the neighborhood of 2-3 years. I think that's also true for 1E (which I believe went into development in 1976, but don't quote me on it).

Third: We know that, despite the reliance on the pre-existing 3.5 engine, Paizo spent more time developing the core rulebook for Pathfinder than they spend on any individual volume of their AP series.

 

[SlyDoubt]

People seem to sometimes forget that the adventure paths aren't just an adventure. Usually the book is about 60% adventure with the rest being a bestiary, a short story and some article about the setting.

Most people are probably getting each AP for around $14-16. $14 for a 96 page full color book with a full adventure, 6ish new monsters, a story and an article about something setting related is a very good deal. All with high quality art, excellent graphic design and generally good writing. You can't undervalue those last 3 things either. For people like me who don't just like RPGs but also like books themselves they mean a lot.

You get a lot of good stuff on a regular schedule. It's a very straight forward and smart way of doing things.

It also moves the focus away from rules which is great. Instead of having a constant flow of splat books that add nothing of real value we have a constant flow of adventures with rules books here and there. In my mind that's how it should be. Support the game by making material to play it with and expand the game at a much slower pace.

 

[IronWolf]

It also moves the focus away from rules which is great. Instead of having a constant flow of splat books that add nothing of real value we have a constant flow of adventures with rules books here and there. In my mind that's how it should be. Support the game by making material to play it with and expand the game at a much slower pace.

I agree. I love hearing that the APs are the staple of Paizo's business. Moving away from rules as being the staple really helps slow down the edition cycle of a game which is a good thing to me.