[Those who like 4ed] What has been lost?

[CapnZapp]

As for the Mystery complaint, I only buy that if you come straight from 2nd edition.

I find that 4E is much better in creating/maintaining mystery than 3E, because:
1) the way monsters don't play by the PCs rules
2) the way investigation-ruining features have been scrubbed away, or at least been bumped up in level
3) rituals - or at least the promise of rituals (I agree the current set of rituals is underwhelming. However, the basic mechanism could do so much more)

 

[CapnZapp]

My biggest complaint about 4E is instead this:

The designers absolutely and utterly failed to deliver a speedy game.

I can only speak for my own group, but we average little over two combat encounters per play session. Sometimes we manage to squeeze in a third, but only if there is nothing but combat all evening long, and only if the opponents are run of the mill bad guys (that is, not complex BBEG types).

This generates way too little story and character progression per hour played; especially compared to the number of hours you play the game (almost like moving your game piece on a board).

I like 4E very much, but it's come to a point where you can't tell a decent story without taking up a month's worth of gaming.

Which in turn causes a secondary issue: too fast leveling. I completely understand my players when they want to level at least once a month (four play sessions). But it causes problems when the littlest side-trek story will eat up that entire level, just because in those four sessions, we only manage 8-12 combats.


Zapp

 

[Lord Xtheth]

The only way to get that back is to restrict player choice.

I mean, even in 2e there was optimization paths. For example, the optimal weapon was the longsword since it was the most common magical weapon you could find. Thus, you specialized as a fighter in longsword.

Yes, but did every single player create a fighter specialized in longsword every single time? Probably not. Every character I see and DM for is completely optimized to "perfection".

I blame the internet.

 

[Nebulous]

My biggest complaint about 4E is instead this:

The designers absolutely and utterly failed to deliver a speedy game.

I can only speak for my own group, but we average little over two combat encounters per play session. Sometimes we manage to squeeze in a third, but only if there is nothing but combat all evening long, and only if the opponents are run of the mill bad guys (that is, not complex BBEG types).

This generates way too little story and character progression per hour played; especially compared to the number of hours you play the game (almost like moving your game piece on a board).

I like 4E very much, but it's come to a point where you can't tell a decent story without taking up a month's worth of gaming.

Which in turn causes a secondary issue: too fast leveling. I completely understand my players when they want to level at least once a month (four play sessions). But it causes problems when the littlest side-trek story will eat up that entire level, just because in those four sessions, we only manage 8-12 combats.


Zapp

LOL, yeah, that's true. Combat really does take too damn long. I cut corners here and there but you can only do so much. When it comes down to it, having five players poring over their power cards to eliminate monsters with a boatload of hit points just takes time.

I don't use XP, i just count encounters and level the party up about every 10. Which is roughly every 4 sessions.

 

[AllisterH]

Yes, but did every single player create a fighter specialized in longsword every single time? Probably not. Every character I see and DM for is completely optimized to "perfection".

I blame the internet.

The internet is definitely to blame.

Everyone knows what's in the DMG and thus there are no more "secrets" about how the game works. In pew 3e, how many *players* actually knew that the random tables from the back of the DMG heavily favoured the longsword?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Welcome to the boards, Overman.

I may be wrong, but in my opinion 4e is too mechanical and is best for power-gamers

Mechanical, certainly. Possibly overbuilt, even. But I would argue that it is actually much harder for powergamers than previous editions. It is so overbuilt compared to them that it's relatively hard to break.

 

[Apeiron]

My biggest complaint about 4E is instead this:

The designers absolutely and utterly failed to deliver a speedy game.

I can only speak for my own group, but we average little over two combat encounters per play session. Sometimes we manage to squeeze in a third, but only if there is nothing but combat all evening long, and only if the opponents are run of the mill bad guys (that is, not complex BBEG types).

This generates way too little story and character progression per hour played; especially compared to the number of hours you play the game (almost like moving your game piece on a board). (1)

I like 4E very much, but it's come to a point where you can't tell a decent story without taking up a month's worth of gaming.

Which in turn causes a secondary issue: too fast leveling. I completely understand my players when they want to level at least once a month (four play sessions). But it causes problems when the littlest side-trek story will eat up that entire level, just because in those four sessions, we only manage 8-12 combats. (2)


Zapp

(1) This is a failure to put RP and development into the session. It's not the game's job to do that. It's a fantasy combat sim.

Do less combat. Have the GM write scenes like a screen writer does. Set the scene, establish a conflict or choice to be made and go at it. Not a single dice need be rolled.

Award XP for things other than killing. Reward RP.

(2) Award less XP. Do away with XP. No one says you have to do it their way. You don't have to play table top Diablo 3.

i use a system of awarding Cents. 100 Cents buys a level. Cents can buy other things as well. How many Cents do I need to level this time? 100. How many do I need for level 10? 100. Easy. Then the GM decides what percentage of a level should a given problem be. If it is a goblin stomp, give 10 c. If it's the big bad, make it 20 c.

Award cents for RP, bringing snacks to share, taking notes, solving the puzzle, for whatever else.

i've found that combat in 4E is much faster than any other edition.

 

[Apeiron]

i miss class variation. The only real difference between classes is "do you damage from a distance or up close".

 

[Raven Crowking]

This is a failure to put RP and development into the session. It's not the game's job to do that. It's a fantasy combat sim.

Although I would agree that 4e is more "a fantasy combat sim" than any previous edition, I wouldn't even say 4e is merely such.

i've found that combat in 4E is much faster than any other edition.

What other editions have you played?

 

[Gort]

i miss class variation. The only real difference between classes is "do you damage from a distance or up close".

Yeah, rangers are exactly the same as invokers.